Creating Safe Spaces: Olivia Brosecki’s Journey in LGBTQIA+ Advocacy

Interview Transcript

Liv Podcast

Nick McEwan-Hall: [00:00:00] So welcome everybody to the mental health couch podcast. My name is Nick and I’m joined today by Olivia Brosecki. Senior project coordinator at the rainbow network. ‘Liv’s career has focused on creating safe spaces for young LGBTQIA plus people to thrive in with a career spanning teaching policy, advocacy, and training. Her focus has always been on supporting young people to be their best selves. Welcome to the podcast live.

Olivia Brozecki: Thanks Nick, lovely to be here.

Nick McEwan-Hall: So good to have you here. I want to dive straight into it and ask you to walk us through your story. Tell us a bit about yourself, your background and what you do.

Olivia Brozecki: Mmm,

thinking about my career and I guess what’s underpinned it, um, being, uh, you know, that focus on LGBTIQA plus youth. Um, just, you know, I can’t help but reflect on my own. experience growing up in Western Sydney, um, which was quite isolating back in the late eighties, early nineties, and onwards. [00:01:00] The closest sort of community led supports, um, were a good 40 minute drive away.

So that completely wasn’t accessible until I got my license. Uh, and I remember how freeing. experience of finally getting my P plates felt as an 18 year old. I was still in high school. Um, so yeah. And, and, you know, of course, the one time I lied to my parents, uh, and I went to a gay nightclub in Sydney.

The car broke down and I spent every single penny, oh yeah, in my bank account, which was probably 200 or something. Um, to, to get the tow truck to, you know, tow it home. So, yeah, they weren’t impressed with, with that. Um, but yeah, I guess it just speaks to the shame, the stigma, the internalised homophobia, the intense fear I had, um, on coming out to my family.

Um, At that point I was out to only a handful of friends, [00:02:00] and I learnt the hard way, I suppose, through observation of how unsafe. Um, with my gay best friend since year 8, um, Paul, who I just caught up with in Sydney the other day actually. Um, yeah, he, he was outed and just copped, you know, some pretty terrible bullying.

Um, so. Yeah, I learned the importance of, of keeping quiet and, and really flying under the radar. Um, and that’s exhausting, leaving, leaving that kind of double life, or at least, yeah, pretending to. So, yeah, when I think about the work that I’ve been doing, um, for the vast majority of my career, um, gosh, 20 years now or more, um,

it, it’s, It’s, I guess, with that in mind, that in the back of my mind, you know, um, [00:03:00] it’s important, I think, to give back to the community that has given so much to me and, you know, we stand on the shoulders of giants and I think of all the amazing advocates before me and, and I’d like to think of myself in following in their footsteps and, and trying to continue the good fight to, um, create those safe places, whether that is, you know, at school, in their homes, uh, on the street.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Everywhere.

Olivia Brozecki: In their health service or whatever the case may be. Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: So many dimensions to it. Isn’t there this idea of like, where are people safe? And we think, I think sometimes that people are safe if they’re safe, they’re safe, but actually that’s really context dependent. It’s super is particularly for our community, right? Like

Olivia Brozecki: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: it sounds like those experiences really kind of almost in predetermined where you were going to go and what you’re going to do, but [00:04:00] were those experiences part of why you chose teaching?

Hmm.

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah, kind of. I actually did a journalism degree. Um, yeah, a degree that I never really used. You know, never really made money from anyway in that profession. Um, kind of hated it in the end and found it really unethical. But, but even in my writing I always had planned to Um, whatever it means, um, to create a better world, you know, to just offer that diverse voice or elevate the diverse voices of others.

And, um, yeah, the teaching kind of was just a tacked on kind of idea. I, yeah, I’d probably get a job quite kind of easily if I did this and travel as well and teach.

So I was kind of encouraged to do that, um, by my partner at the time and, and really just loved it. Like. connected really well with teenagers in particular.

So I was a high school trained teacher. [00:05:00] Um, and Yeah, the subjects I taught were kind of my secondary passions, if you like, so English and visual arts. I then went on to, um, eventually teach sexuality education, which I just adored. It was just so much

Nick McEwan-Hall: Okay.

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah, um, and, and quite a different experience, uh, for, for lots of reasons.

But one of them being, it’s a lot easier to engage students when you’ve got a condom and dildo in your hand as opposed to, you know, Emma, Emma or something. Yeah. Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. I mean, it makes so much sense when you say it like that. Yeah. It’s funny. You know, I, I, I did secondary teaching as well and I was a bit the opposite. Like I really had a great experience in high school in my design technology class and I had a great teacher and I was like, Oh, I just want to be a design technology teacher.

So like the, the subject area was kind of first for me and teaching. As an idea is like, I was like, well, I liked that, but I think it was very much [00:06:00] about like, yeah, having a role model or something that I could grab onto and go, yeah, I think I’d like to do that, you know,

and I, and totally not understanding what the job was

about,

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah. Yeah. How long,

how long did you

Nick McEwan-Hall: that I never

Olivia Brozecki: as a teacher, out of curiosity?

Nick McEwan-Hall: became a

Olivia Brozecki: Ah,

see, there

Nick McEwan-Hall: I never,

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And for me, as soon as I started to kind of resent the workload and the intense pressure from parents and the whole community and, you know, it just became a bit of a drag. I thought, that’s, that’s my cue to leave.

Don’t do it to the young people, you know, because there’s so many. Not burnt out teachers, but teachers who just needed to leave, you know, around me.

Um, so I only did about eight, eight years or so, I think, all that. But I had some great experiences because I worked in, yeah, faith based public and independent sectors in rural, regional, and metro New South Wales and Victoria, actually.

So in that short period of time, I moved around a lot, but learned a lot as well. [00:07:00] Um, and

Nick McEwan-Hall: So you’ve got the travel

thing ticked yeah, yeah.

traveling around a

Olivia Brozecki: But also the advocacy bug, I think, was much

Nick McEwan-Hall: okay.

Olivia Brozecki: bigger than the travel bug, I think. Um, and in part the reason why I left the profession was because social change was just so excruciatingly slow with the education system, you know, looking very much like it did 100 years ago.

Um, and it still does. Um, and you know, yeah, I just found that incredibly frustrating and And didn’t have the patience to stick around and kind of just continue to feel like I was there in the token gay, waving the rainbow pride flag in the corner, you know, um, so it was a,

Nick McEwan-Hall: see it. Like I can, as you describe it, I can picture it,

you know, and it’s, yeah, I can see and feel what that might’ve been like.

Olivia Brozecki: incredibly isolating, huge sense of [00:08:00] responsibility. Um, lots of fear though, and anxiety. Yeah. I was out to staff, but not to students until the end of my teaching career as well. Um,

Nick McEwan-Hall: Interesting.

Olivia Brozecki: so there was layers. There was definite, you know. Journey has been amongst that whole career. Um, but yeah, I, I really welcomed feeling valued as a queer inclusive, I don’t want to say expert, but knowledge holder of some kind.

Um, when I became a sexuality educator and just, you know, my, my key job was essentially ensuring that the educators did was inclusive and would speak to, you know, same sex attracted and gender diverse and intersex. young people, which as we know is, is, uh, you know, it’s lacking, but things are changing, which is

Nick McEwan-Hall: Incredible. I can sort of see how that like the journalism, you know, you were talking about journalism.

That’s where you started. And that [00:09:00] idea about communicating and and reporting what’s happening. You know, I think about journalism like capturing what’s going on. And as you tell your story, I can sort of see ways that that journalism skill set or interest would have kind of intersected with all of those experiences kind of going.

This is the way that now I can bring you. Experience to the four

and give it on a reboot.

Olivia Brozecki: absolutely. And lots of transferable skills, of course, especially like in teaching, you know, like public speaking, you know, I can quite confidently presented a conference or whatever these days. And, and, you know, that, yeah, that comes from, yeah, teaching 259 boys how to put a condom on a dildo, you know, like I just keep whenever I feel nervous, I just think if I can do that, I can do anything.

Nick McEwan-Hall: You sure can. That’s exactly what I was thinking. That’s literally what I was thinking. I was going to say, if you can

do that, then you can do it. That’s totally fine, right? It’s not funny, these little things we remember and how they show up.

It’s, I think everyone’s got birds I said, I don’t story. I didn’t know that [00:10:00] about your background.

So it’s really been interesting. Bring me forward to like now, like what do you do? So we met a few years ago, but you know, more recently you’ve been working at the rainbow network and I’m, I’m keen to let our listener kind of hear a little bit about what that’s about. Like, what is the rainbow network and what do you do there?

How does that, how does that fit into the story of

Olivia Brozecki: I’m really lucky in, in that the Rainbow Network is quite not, um, what’s the word? It can be pretty much what I want it to be within my skill set. Um, and, and, you know, as long as it aligns with what, what the program is designed to achieve, you know, the way I go about it is, is very much led by me, which is super exciting.

Um, but essentially.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Really? Yeah, Rainbow Network supports the health and well being of LGBTIQA plus young people by improving the practice of the people and services that work with and for them. So I guess I kind of think of it like, um, I’m not particularly, uh, as youth [00:11:00] facing as I used to be in former roles. I still engage young leaders though to influence and shape what I do and how I do it.

Olivia Brozecki: But, um, It’s mainly about supporting the youth sector. So those who, like I said, work with and for queer young people across Victoria. Um, and being a statewide, um, peak body, I suppose, or program, um, it’s a lot more strategic and a lot more kind of, um, yeah, advocacy kind of policy ish driven. Um, I I do, I do things to essentially, uh, enhance the profile of the great work that is being done by other incredible youth workers across the state.

Um, so for example, highlighting their events and groups and so on, uh, our website and our directories or, um, through our kind of monthly newsletters. [00:12:00] Um, or, or coll

Nick McEwan-Hall: True. Those newsletters,

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah,

Nick McEwan-Hall: they’re so, so man packed full of good

stuff. And every time, every time I get one,

I’m like, Oh, look at that. Like it’s, yeah, it’s one of those ones I love getting, you

know, it’s just,

Olivia Brozecki: Same. And I’ve never deleted one. And you know, I’m talking, you know, years now of, of never deleting a rainbow network newsletter. So I’m not just tooting my own horn when I say that. Um, but yeah.

I collaborate really purposefully. So I call like the groups that I’m kind of helping to manage or oversee or host, um, collaborating with purpose, you know, like we’re, we’re working on a specific project after identifying a gap, uh, and, and developing resources or whatever, you know, needs to kind of fill that gap, whatever that is.

And that’s, that’s a really exciting kind of process. Yeah, it builds on my partnership kind of skills, I guess, and, and connecting the right people, getting them in, um, in the room. [00:13:00] Uh, and, and, and it’s great because I don’t feel like I have, I have to carry the knowledge or be the expert. I’m not at all. I’m just the person who’s able to facilitate that conversation and, and progress the work that they already want to do, but just don’t have the time to kind of pull it all together.

So that’s been super exciting. I’ve got a few things. like that going on at the moment in various spaces. Yeah. Um,

Nick McEwan-Hall: seen you. I’ve seen you work in that space to live. I’ve seen you sort of pull people together,

Olivia Brozecki: yeah, constantly.

Nick McEwan-Hall: groups like it’s yeah, the way you go about it. Like now having heard a little bit about your background and what your, what your background has been, I can sort of see that come through in the way that you do that work,

Olivia Brozecki: Oh, good.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah, I

really can. I really can. Yeah.

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah. I feel like I do that every day. Really like that. It’s not just a second, secondary consult referrals or whatever advice giving, although there’s lots of that as well. It’s, it’s about a, hold on a minute. We were just talking about [00:14:00] this last week and you should totally, you know, connect and see where that goes and I can support you like this and you know, whatever, whatever.

Um, yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: It’s so cool.

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah. Yeah. So it’s

exciting.

Nick McEwan-Hall: can definitely, yeah, it sounds exciting. I was just going to say, I think I can, I can definitely say that the Rainbow Network newsletter and all that sort of, and the website and stuff is one that everyone who works in this space should, if it just works with young people,

right, should be

Olivia Brozecki: Victorian based in particular, definitely check it out. Um, yeah, it is. It’s pretty amazing. And I’m part of the Rainbow Health Australia team, which is just growing exponentially. It’s just incredible. And, uh, hopefully we’ll be trained up to deliver some training through Rainbow Health Australia as well in the not too distant future.

So that’s really exciting because I’ve always loved, um, yeah, working in any kind of service school or Youth service, whatever it is, um, to, to help them on their kind of, you know, very [00:15:00] genuine, holistic, inclusive practice journey, you know, um, yeah, so looking forward to, to brushing up on, on my facilitation skills and getting that rolled out too.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Hopefully, hopefully I’ve left my patronizing teacher voice at home, but we’ll

Nick McEwan-Hall: I think have, I don’t think, I don’t think teachers or young people would put up with it

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah, yeah, no, that’s

Nick McEwan-Hall: experience.

Olivia Brozecki: exactly. I

Nick McEwan-Hall: I hear, I can hear how this role, like you’re in now, rainbow Network. I can hear how it lights you up like that. It, it kind of. brings all of your experience together in a very kind of self driven kind of way that’s authentic and meaningful to you. I can see and hear that today.

Olivia Brozecki: know I’m so lucky. I feel like this is honestly maybe the fourth time in my 20 plus years of work [00:16:00] where I’ve seriously just sat back and thought, whoa, I’m in my dream job. You know, like, um, it’s amazing the opportunities that kind of arise when. really when you just connect with people in genuine ways.

And, you know, I think back, yes, a very impressionable 18 year old and being told by someone who I still consider a mentor, um, all these years later, um, you know, like simple yet profound messages, like it’s not homosexuality that’s the problem, it’s homophobia, like we’re going back, you know, to the early 2000s with that language, as you can probably tell, um, but that was huge for me, like that absolutely shifted my focus from the emotional turmoil, turmoil that I was experiencing internally, um, to this outward facing, um, community led.

I’m part of this community. What can I do to kind of enhance it, improve it, connect it, whatever, um, to create those safe [00:17:00] spaces. So in many ways, um, Yeah, those, those conversations and that connecting with others, particularly older queer people in my life, um, has, has really helped shape my career path.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Amazing. So it sounds like you’re in a really great place, like with your job and with the work, but there’s got to be challenges. There’s got to be things that are tricky, right?

Olivia Brozecki: Oh, you know,

far right

Nick McEwan-Hall: are.

Olivia Brozecki: you know, the global rise of hate and transphobia. And yes, all that, all that really terrifying stuff. Um, politically. I’ve learned. I guess since working for Safe Schools Coalition Australia, um, back in like the 2014, 13, 14, 15, um, you know, quite first hand, uh, what, what it feels like, I suppose, [00:18:00] when you know that you’re so motivated to get Out of bed in the morning and go to, go to a job that you really value, that you love, that you know is positive, um, that you hear, you know, saves kids lives, to quote people that, you know, uh, have been impacted positively by it.

Uh, and, and when that becomes a political football, it’s quite, uh, it’s a really hard experience to, to describe. At the time I was using the word surreal a lot, and it did kind of feel like walking in a dream or nightmare at any time of day, depending on what was happening, whether there was like a protest to save the program outside your building or, you know, a hate call on the end of the phone, whatever.

So, yeah, I guess for me, that experience has really [00:19:00] helped inform what I do here. Um, like I said, supporting, I guess, the youth sector more broadly is, is a key part of my role. And the anxiety and the vicarious trauma, um, The burnout that I experienced in the past in various roles and, you know, for various reasons, um, has, has really helped kind of inform ways in which I can, I guess, get better at self care myself personally and make sure that I, you know, maintain a good, healthy work life balance, but also.

Um, sharing that knowledge and connecting other experts in that kind of self care, trauma informed counselling ish space, um, with the queer workers or, or even youth workers who work with queer young people,

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah,

Olivia Brozecki: um, [00:20:00] has been really exciting and that’s another kind of little semi project that’s just applied for funding and so fingers crossed for them that, yeah, we can kind of support that whole process.

Yeah. Mm.

Nick McEwan-Hall: think your your comments and experience in that burnout space. I think it’s the work that you’re much more focused on the rainbow community. I mean, we have rainbow programs, but we’re not as enmeshed

in that in that world. You are in your work. And I think as I talk to people who are in your holy

kind of rainbow focus roles where all of that stuff’s just coming through the door 24 7 that that kind of Burnout is really common.

It’s a common story that I hear. And I think it’s got a, it’s got a particular kind of flavor to

it. You know, like

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: we’re, the community is experiencing that we’re also part of the

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah, totally. Totally. There’s so much layers and complexity in that, isn’t it? And I [00:21:00] think, um,

Nick McEwan-Hall: off, like we just don’t get to go home from that sometimes. So like, I think it’s got this particular, yeah,

like,

Olivia Brozecki: that’s right.

Nick McEwan-Hall: yeah, I think

Olivia Brozecki: The personal.

Nick McEwan-Hall: pattern to it.

Olivia Brozecki: Absolutely. And that’s, that’s, I guess, the constant struggle with anyone who works in this sector, who’s part of the community. Anyone with lived experience who works for the community in which they serve. You know, the personal is the political. The political is the personal.

It’s, it’s impossible. I’ve learned it’s impossible to disentangle the two. So I don’t try anymore, but I am mindful. I am mindful of it. And so, like I said, yeah, employing good strategies to help manage that. And keeping in mind too, like I didn’t mention this in my intro, but, um, I’m hyper aware, I would say, probably in an unhealthy way, of, um, poor mental health.

My family history, uh, is riddled [00:22:00] with various mental health conditions and diseases and so on, and illness, um, that, um, I’m kind of hyper vigilant. And so when, when it’s getting politically heavy at work, and I see My colleagues start to kind of break down a bit and experience that burnout and vicarious trauma.

Um, you know, it’s a real, it’s alarm bells. And so accessing supports early is something that I’m always on the front foot on. Um,

Nick McEwan-Hall: good to hear.

Olivia Brozecki: yeah, yeah. I think, I think it’s really important, um, and not just, you know, to access help when you need it, but to actually access it always so that you can maintain good mental health.

I think that if you can, if you have access to it, if, you know, um, if it’s, you know,

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. Yeah.

Olivia Brozecki: so

Nick McEwan-Hall: You raised a really good point. I think we. We’re really good at responding when something’s happened,

you know, we’re really good at [00:23:00] responding when we see something’s happened, but I think in some ways we could be better at that kind of like early, kind of not even early intervention, just kind of going, you know what, there’s a whole lot of crazy stuff that’s happening in the

media at the moment to do with our, with our community, for example, and going, that’s something that I need to have in my thinking

right now, because it’s, It’s close to home and it’s that sort of like,

I don’t know if it’s a good thing, but it’s like preventative kind of ensuring you’re down at the, you know, in the green end of the continuum that I’m so

fond of, you know, to think about those things early,

right?

Because, and I guess that’s what I was thinking before. It’s like, because that’s happening, those things are happening to and for and in our community and we are in and working in that community, we don’t get that choice to like go, that’s not going to affect me. It’s like, well, of course it’s

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah, of course it’s going to. And if it doesn’t affect us directly, it’s affecting someone that we work with or someone that we support

Mm hmm.

Nick McEwan-Hall: we want to advocate for. Yeah, it makes so much sense. [00:24:00] When you, um, when you think about sort of mental health in the, in the work that you

do, like, you know, whether that’s mental health or mental illness or mental health problem, you know, whatever language you put

on it. How does that sort of fit into the work of the Rainbow Network? Like, how does that kind of show itself as a, as a theme or a kind of area of focus? I

Olivia Brozecki: It’s changed over the years. Initially, all H. A. Y. partner organisations, of which, um, Rainbow Neckwork is one, so H. A. Y. just stands for Healthy Equal Youth. It’s, um, a funding stream, I guess, that’s been going for, oh, about 15, 16 years now with the big, big government. Yeah, um, initially, for a long time, it came out of suicide prevention.

So, you know, it, that in itself speaks volumes as to what the priorities are when addressing health inequity, um, yeah, with LGBTIQI plus young people. It, it now, and I think, thankfully, I think it’s a good thing, it sits with a team called Diverse [00:25:00] communities that look at, you know, various different communities, including LGBTIQA class communities.

So, um, and, and I think that shift is important because, um, obviously you’re not, you’re not going to be mentally ill just because you’re part of the LGBTIQA class community. It’s, it’s the experiences of, of shame, whether that’s internalized, uh, or kind of put on you, it’s. It’s the experience of stigma. Um, again, internal, external.

Um, and, and the political discrimination, the structural stuff, you know, the stuff that’s really hard to see unless you have learned to see the world in that way. Um, that, that is what impacts our mental health in a negative way. So, um, yeah, yeah. Definitely, language is really important, I think, when talking about it, and, and as I’m sure you know, Nick, you know, the pathologisation [00:26:00] of homosexuality, I mean, that term in itself, I think, was coined by a, a white male doctor in, um,

yep, and, and of course, you know, gender dysphoria.

I, I love, I love the reclaiming of terms like gender euphoria, just flipping that idea on its head.

Trans joy. You know, there’s some really sex affirming resources that are out there that just would have been unheard of, you know,

Nick McEwan-Hall: Oh,

Olivia Brozecki: ago.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Um, and Absolutely. Real, really recent. And, um, it’s so refreshing to, to see such amazing strides of progress, but at the same time, you know, we’re obviously all very wary that you can’t take anything for granted and that political context more broadly, more globally is a scary one, you know, the rise of far right extremism and, and, um, what the digital, you know, [00:27:00] Digitization and AI and disinformation, misinformation, you know, there’s just so many layers of how, um, how volatile I guess that that context can be for some at certain times.

And so, yeah, I think for me, I, I’m really inspired by my local federal. MPs and the independent movement, not to kind of show too much of my political kind of persuasion, but, but, but I guess, you know, importantly, if, if their values are aligned with my own and their community led, uh, and keep that community in, in mind when they vote and things in parliament.

It is, it is a really hopeful, I think, and um, Yeah, I’m kind of digressing, but, but I feel like,

Nick McEwan-Hall: it’s really cool.

Olivia Brozecki: yeah,

Nick McEwan-Hall: it sounds like, um, as [00:28:00] you’re talking, it sounds like 18 or 19 or 20 year old, they would be like, wow, look at where we are,

Olivia Brozecki: Oh yeah, gosh.

Nick McEwan-Hall: you know? In a big way, like a huge way.

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah, it’s funny, I, I find, it’s a long story, but I, I have my 18 year old artwork, like my end of year 12,

Nick McEwan-Hall: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, painting, it’s huge, it’s like 4. 5 metres by 1. 5 metres or something, it was like the maximum size canvas you could have. Um, and it’s currently Cause it doesn’t fit on any wall internally.

Olivia Brozecki: It’s on display in our back deck and it’s probably being rained on as we speak. But, um, it has been really interesting looking at that again, knowing that somewhere. It’s probably rotted away now, but like, I know that there is some words that disclose my sexuality. And even just saying that, like, I, I can feel in my gut, you [00:29:00] know, this sense of kind of fear and anxiety.

And, and it takes me back to that scared, repressed little 18 year old lesbian self. And, um, yeah, to think that,

Nick McEwan-Hall: it’s interesting how those memories stay with us, isn’t it?

Olivia Brozecki: yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: And the fear, you know, the feeling it reminds me of that thing where people say people won’t remember what you say, but I’ll remember

how made you feel, yeah,

It’s such a, yeah, it’s

such a good demonstration of that.

Like, yeah, that’s obviously very many.

And as, as you said that, you know, as you said, yeah, it was the maximum size canvas I would

like to so much to say, but I had to do it in like this symbolic, no one else will understand it way because that felt safe. Yeah.

And I think it’s like, what went through my counsellor

Olivia Brozecki: Oh gosh.

Nick McEwan-Hall: interesting, like, you

Olivia Brozecki: out the ink blobs next, Nick? No, sorry.

Nick McEwan-Hall: 18 year old Liv wanted to take up as much space [00:30:00] as she could, you know, like,

it’s like, and that’s a big, I think that’s a really common experience

Olivia Brozecki: interesting you say that.

Yeah, I was coming out of my shell at that point, but my goodness, my, my history of being so quiet that I remember one lunchtime in year seven, I think it was. I just didn’t speak at all, out of a bit of a social experiment to myself to see if any of my friends would notice.

And they didn’t. They didn’t, Nick. Whole lunchtime, did not say a word and nobody noticed. So, yeah, you can see where I kind of came from.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. It’s really interesting. I mean, everyone’s got that story. I

think everyone’s got that story about what their 18 like and what I mean,

I’m not what I was at 18, like who is, you know, um, Maybe there are people, maybe there are people live that we don’t know who are like, yep, I’m the same as I was when I was 18.

Like, well, I hear them maybe, but maybe it’s like, I don’t know, maybe it’s better.

I’m not sure. But I think, yeah, it’s an interesting kind of way to look back at things, isn’t it? Kind of like, yeah. Okay. Well, it’s [00:31:00] changed. And as you say before, like, you know, we were saying things change really fast. Like,

It happens so quickly now, like I think back in, like when we were younger, things took longer to kind of happen.

They just did. Like we weren’t, we weren’t aware of what was going on in the States. Like I didn’t know, didn’t have the internet when I was at high school. You know, it’s like, well, it’s just different, you know, it’s just different. And that has pros and it has

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s right. And I think that’s it. You know, we’re always learning and changing and growing and nothing, nothing stays the same. So yeah. Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: You touched on this before you, you, um, you mentioned this whole idea of pathologization. And one of the things that, um, I always remember from when I first met you, which is when you came to one of our rainbow youth mental health first aid programs, I want to say last year, maybe the year before, I don’t know. Um, you, you described this, this concept of pathologization so clearly to me, I remember the stamina going. Wow. Just [00:32:00] like learned a whole thing, you know, the way you described it. Talk us through it. Like, what does it mean? Tell it, tell us a little bit about what this is about. This idea of pathologization for the rainbow community.

Olivia Brozecki: Hmm. Well, I think it’s important to admit our wrongs. And really when I first started training other adults to be. What I hoped were, was better allies. Looking back, you know, 22 or something, and I was standing in front of, I think, a hundred fellow teachers. Some of them with their arms crossed in the back row.

Yeah, yeah, that vibe, you know. And

I was trying really hard to be light, but be informative and be interactive, and I had lollies, and you know, it was all fun and games, but actually I was absolutely packing it, yeah. It’s terrible. Um, but yeah, I, I remember really emphasizing the terrible stats about poor mental health [00:33:00] and the community and you know, the suicide attempt rates and the depression, the anxiety, the homelessness, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

And, and really the aim when I think about why I was doing that, why I chose to talk about that stuff. Well, there were a couple of reasons. One was. You can’t argue with stats, right? That’s kind of factual and objective, and here I am as this gay person, but I’m not sharing my personal stuff, which felt safe, but also not as objective, I suppose, and, and so there was that aspect, but underneath those stats really emphasizes feelings of pity and sympathy, and that those were the feelings that I was kind of evoking, you know, um, at best.

And nobody wants pity, you know, it took me a few years to learn that that actually is not productive at all. Um, I don’t want anyone’s sympathy or pity. I’m really proud of who I am. And if I had a choice of being gay or [00:34:00] straight, I’d choose, you know, gay any, any day of the week and twice on Sundays,

Nick McEwan-Hall: yeah.

Olivia Brozecki: say, you know, um,

Nick McEwan-Hall: Hmm.

Olivia Brozecki: um, but yeah, that took years of learning and, and I guess one, an activity that I.

Um, still whip out occasionally, kind of unpacks words in a kind of continuum. So it will start as say repulsion, um, there’s eight words type total. I won’t remember them all, but repulsion. And then I think pity, tolerance, acceptance.

Nick McEwan-Hall: for me

Olivia Brozecki: I know my primary school motto was tolerance, like

terrible. And it’s still, it’s still the same, which I passed it the other day in Western Sydney and I was just like, Oh, I really needed to fix it.

That terrible word.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Sorry. I jumped

Olivia Brozecki: I know, I know, I know. But yeah, even acceptance, you know, it took me years to get that acceptance was actually not nearly good enough. In fact, it’s, it’s not good at all. [00:35:00] Like, out of the goodness of my heart, I’m going to accept you, Nick. Despite you being gay, I’m going to take you in under my wing and accept

Nick McEwan-Hall: Like,

it’s a compromise or something.

Olivia Brozecki: like as if there’s something of you that I need to accept in the first place. Like there isn’t, you know.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Olivia Brozecki: that word in itself and what that evokes is not conducive at all, you know, in true allyship. And then of course the words get more positive, so things like support, affirmation, and celebration is the key, that’s the best.

Since, since unpacking that and learning that, um, I always try and think about how can I make what I’m doing here have that celebratory kind of vibe or energy and, you know, that’s, that’s always had the best impact with any young queer person walking through the doors. So, yeah, that’s always been fun to think about it like that.

Nick McEwan-Hall: As you describe it and I think about You know, celebratory environments. I think about the other goal that you’ve had in your [00:36:00] career, which is about safety. And I think, well, where we can celebrate, we are safe,

right? Like where we can celebrate the safe. Yeah. Yeah, Powerful. Think about it that

way. It’s a nice. Yeah.

Olivia Brozecki: like my biggest career highlights is at a rainbow ball event when I saw this older young person, so she would have been maybe 18 at the time, who Was always just so in her shell like, you know, really hunched shoulders quite tall But you know head down always hair covering her face the whole kind of stereotypical Anxiety ridden face, you know what I mean?

Um

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah.

Olivia Brozecki: when when I saw her bravely solo step out onto this like kind of fashion runway, if you will, that the young people just sort of formed organically. Um, and she just like stood up taller, like, and danced. Yeah. And I just was like, Whoa, this, [00:37:00] this is what it’s all about live. You know, this is, yeah, this tiny couple of seconds of my career, you know, it’s, it’s all worth it.

Absolutely.

Nick McEwan-Hall: It’s all worth it. Those

moments are so amazing, aren’t they?

Olivia Brozecki: Ah, I know. I

Nick McEwan-Hall: the world spins, you’re like, oh, I could do it

all if it’s in.

Olivia Brozecki: And the first time I shared my story in front of 200, 300 SRC students at a school in North Sydney, years ago, I was 18 years old and maybe 19. I still remember the look on the face of a young, probably gay, maybe even trans student in front of me, you know. It was just this knowing look in their eyes and I’m like, uh huh, Yeah. this person gets it.

They know exactly what I’m saying here.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Oh, wow. That’s just, yeah, that’s, I had a civil moment

like that recently.

Like, yeah.

And as you described, maybe it was the other way [00:38:00] around, but like I was at, um, so I did a lot of work in regional Victoria and I was up in the, um, Alpine region

Olivia Brozecki: Mmm.

Nick McEwan-Hall: you know, We had a, in a small school, this is a high school, but about 150 students across six years,

you know, everyone knows everybody that whole thing.

Olivia Brozecki: Sounds like my hometown. Mm hmm. Mm

Nick McEwan-Hall: yeah, yeah. Well, he probably, probably does. And I was there, we were teaching men, teen mental health first aid year eight student.

And, um, uh, a really lovely trans person and that was sitting there, so the course is three sessions, sitting there in court in session one. And I was like, okay, cool. And they were very quiet, you know, very kind of withdrawn, but they were on the table with their other friends and stuff.

And you could tell that that little bubble was so supportive

and so committed and such a protective factor for that young

Olivia Brozecki: Mm

Nick McEwan-Hall: This person was just sitting there really quiet,

and at the end of the day, I went into the car and I took my jacket off and I hung it up on the, the coat hanger, [00:39:00] and I realized that I didn’t have my ribbons,

which I usually have. I didn’t have my badges and my ribbons, you

Olivia Brozecki: yeah, yeah. The bling. Yeah, yeah. The rainbow bling. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Nick McEwan-Hall: I didn’t have them. And I thought, oh, like I, I need to, I need to put that on. When I come back tomorrow, because I need that young person to say that I see them and I need their friends to say that I see them and actually thought to myself, you know, it’s actually probably quite good that people will recognize they’ll go, Oh, he came back tomorrow with the thing

on like something’s changed,

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah, yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: He’s had a moment of awareness. And as it turns out, yeah. I had, um, a bunch of, um, pins like the trans rainbow flag pins in the car because I picked them up from the, from the, um, post office on the way out

here. And I said to the teacher, I said, Oh, you know, she makes over there, uh, I’ve noticed and they’re not here today.

They didn’t come

to session too. And she said, Oh, [00:40:00] yeah, they’re having a tough time today. Um, they’re in, in my office. And I said, okay, cool. I said, no worries. Like, you know, we do what’s safe. We do what we need to do. And, um, That was fine. And I said to the teacher, I said, Oh, I actually have a box of like these trans pride

pins in my, in the car. And I thought I’d give them to you and you can give them to whoever you want. So I was thinking like teachers wear them to support and the school to be clear, very supportive, like super supportive. Couldn’t, couldn’t ask for better support. Right. Um, anyway, third session and

Olivia Brozecki: Of course.

Nick McEwan-Hall: yeah, you know, they’re

Olivia Brozecki: they needed, yeah. It makes such a difference. Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. And I said, Hey, I, I, um, I like your pin. And they said, Oh yeah, you know, Mrs. such and such gave it to me. I said, and, and she said, and I know that you gave them to the school. And I said, Oh yeah. I said, look, I think it’s important like to see that sort of stuff. And she said [00:41:00] to me, yeah, more important than, you know,

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: I was like, Cool.

Like, okay. And the teacher, you know, was saying that actually, you know, just a simple act of recognition really allowed that that young person to come back, engage and feel safe. And it was one of those kind of like revolving world moments for me too. I was like, yeah, this is how this is done.

It’s simple stuff.

It’s just simple stuff, but you have to be able to see it. You have to be able to create that opportunity for

people. And it will stick with me for a long time, that memory, because yeah. And as I looked around all of her friends.

Have the Of course I did.

like so good. Right.

So yeah,

Olivia Brozecki: I know, and

Nick McEwan-Hall: I was a little like,

Olivia Brozecki: I’m just looking at my, my Rainbow Progress earrings that I had on yesterday. I’m wearing my Aboriginal locally made ones because it’s NAIDOC week and I, every day at work wear my trans pride and my latest addition is sticking a intersex flag on my lanyard. Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: That’s cool. These things are important.[00:42:00]

These signs of hope, aren’t they?

Olivia Brozecki: yeah,

Yeah,

that’s right. And you don’t need to be an expert and 100 percent confident that everything you say is going to resonate and be inclusive or whatever. You know, I think the fear of offending is so real that good people just don’t do enough good work because of that fear.

So it’s important to just acknowledge our flaws and press on, you know, we can only keep trying.

Mm

Nick McEwan-Hall: Every young person I’ve spoken to who, you know, chooses pronouns that may not be what we expect them to be,

right, um, will say, I don’t expect you to get it perfect. I just expect you to

try. And if you notice that

Olivia Brozecki: Sucker.

Nick McEwan-Hall: misgendered me

or use the different, different pronouns, just go, sorry,

and try again. Literally, that’s all I’ve ever heard people wanting to do. And it’s, it’s my experience

too. Like I, you know, if, if I asked for something, I just want them to try, you

know, like I want people to try and that’s all we kind of need to do. And it makes a massive difference, which is why we’re talking about it.

Right. It’s like, [00:43:00] yeah, just try and just give it a go.

Oh, amazing. I love, I love that story. Leave it to really, yeah. That story of that, that

Olivia Brozecki: Likewise. Thanks for sharing yours. It’s, it’s great, isn’t it? Those little moments that just make you think, Oh yeah, I’m doing good. I’m doing good. Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah, I think it’s important for people as well to hear that those little things are really valuable. You know, like

we don’t always have to be, we can find programs and do policy, all that stuff. But actually I think it does come down to the one to one

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah,

absolutely. Think global, act local, you know, that whole philosophy, that’s kind of how I operate, and I think that’s super important. And kind of tying the two, I guess, topics of self care and avoiding burnout and, and, The rainbow bling, as I refer to it, together. Um, that’s one of the ways that I try and switch off and switch on work mode.

So when I come to work, I get all my rainbow stuff on the lanyard, the, you know, the badges or [00:44:00] whatever. Um, and when I take that off at the end of the day, I’m leaving. I’m leaving that work mode live at work. And, you know, that, that way, by the time I get home and enter the front door, I’m, I’m mama. I’m. wife, you know, I’m,

family live, yeah, that’s, that’s really important I think as well.

Um, yeah, yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: we’ve all got them, don’t we? We’ve all got these little things that we do that help us to have that separation. Like the boundary. Like I think it’s really healthy,

healthy to have that I think so too, yeah.

in our lives. Need that from us. Like they need us to

take that hat off of

your home, right? They don’t want us to be work, Nick and work, live.

They want us to be, you can

live or my wife. Yeah.

Oh, it sounds like you’ve got, um, Yeah. Good self care habits, which is nice.

Olivia Brozecki: When you mentioned journalism and news and stuff and the impact of negative news, you [00:45:00] know, I haven’t had a TV at home for, I reckon, close to 15 years now, maybe. So that’s, that’s absolutely a mental health strategy.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah.

Olivia Brozecki: don’t want to be bombarded with, with that. Like, I’m going to find out the stuff that’s relevant to my job anyway, but that’s my job.

And yeah, to have that in the living room is just too much. So that’s, that’s been really good as well. I can kind of, you know, be really selective in what I do. Watch at home.

Nick McEwan-Hall: yeah, really purposeful

about it. Like really

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah. Movie night.

Nick McEwan-Hall: choosing what,

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: yeah. Choosing what you can find in, right?

Like, Yeah.

you can come into my

world, but not you. I don’t think I can live without my TV, but through COVID I got a really good habit, which was watch the news once a day. Watch it in the morning, watch a good source, you

know. whatever that you can do, watch it once, the news cycle is 24 hours anyway, watch one cycle, That’s it. That’s all

Olivia Brozecki: it. You’re done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: I just couldn’t sit there and listen to

Olivia Brozecki: I know.

Nick McEwan-Hall: it all day, like, I really developed that [00:46:00] habit, yeah,

Olivia Brozecki: Remember going to my non laws place because I, I’m um Polish, Italian, Bosnian, maybe Ukrainian, Australian. So, yeah, going to my Nana’s place as a kid, and he was quite deaf at this stage, but still, like, he would just switch the news from one channel to the next to the next, and so you’d just watch the same footage

four times.

Yeah, it did my head in, but that was the only way he could kind of make sense of it, you know, because his English wasn’t great and he was Yeah. A bit hard of hearing. So it was like, okay, he’s got the gist now. Thanks to all the images.

 I know.

Oh my goodness. But yeah, it’s

Nick McEwan-Hall: Oh, that’s lovely. Well, I wanted to, um, I wanted to also just ask you a question, if I could, I remember when I was, um, so for the listener who’s listening in, uh, Liv and I met when Liv came to one of our rainbow youth mental health first aid programs a couple of years ago. I gotta be honest with you Liv, when I stood in front of that room, knowing who was there, [00:47:00] you included, I had the biggest imposter syndrome thing going on that day

Olivia Brozecki: Really? Oh, didn’t

Nick McEwan-Hall: yeah, I really, I really did.

Like I really did. And it got,

it got worse the more

brilliant people were. So you know. You know, in that really stupid way that imposter syndrome works, you

Olivia Brozecki: Yeah. Yeah. I know imposter syndrome. Well,

Nick McEwan-Hall: you’re right. And your brain goes, Oh, you’re right. Like, look at all these amazing people. Um, and so I’m kind of curious about, you know, you’ve got such a depth of experience in this space, in the community, in the rainbow space, in mental health, mental health awareness.

And as you’ve talked about, you’ve lived

experience, personal experience, work experience, as I think a lot of us do.

Olivia Brozecki: Mm hmm.

Nick McEwan-Hall: I’m really curious about what that environment there was like for you and what it kind of did for you. Like coming to that program where a lot of the stuff I think probably wasn’t very new to you, but maybe the content or the context was perhaps.

I’m just curious about [00:48:00] that because there are so many people in that room and I’m very lucky in my work that I get to work with really skilled

people. And I just thought quite often about like, what am I possibly going to be able to teach you? Like, what am I, what am I

going to be able to do for You

You don’t already know, right? Curious from people’s perspective, I didn’t get to sit on the training room tables very much or

the seats very much. I get to hunt a lot, but yeah. Talk to me a little bit about what that was like. Like what was, what was

Olivia Brozecki: Well,

Nick McEwan-Hall: the reason for coming? I guess. I don’t know. Yeah.

Olivia Brozecki: first of all, can I just say that, yeah, I definitely suffer from imposter syndrome myself. Um, and fortunately, I did like an annual community leadership program a few years ago, um, which delved imposter syndrome. And one of the things that I do in My career, I guess, is think about the most inspiring, fierce advocate for me.

It’s Star Lady. I’m sure you’ve met Star Lady like, you know, I’m talking about. She’s just incredible.

Um, she’s been on TV [00:49:00] and she grew up quite local actually. Um, and, and he’s back in a, um, living in a region of Victoria at the moment. So, uh, yeah, whenever I feel. I guess, like, I’m not a good enough, strong enough, fierce enough ally.

I just think, what would Starlady do? You know? And I just sort of, like, imagine, like, stardust falling on me and, you know, superpowers sort of stuff.

And I’ve said this to her

at an event that she hosted that I helped organise not long ago. Um, yeah, she loved that little intro.

Nick McEwan-Hall: I’m

going to store that away.

Yep. I

love that. Thank you. that’s

Olivia Brozecki: because, yeah, in this space.

Nick McEwan-Hall: a happy little

Olivia Brozecki: In any community, really, you come across such incredibly amazing, fabulous people and mentors. Um, so, you know, holding on to their inspiration, I think, is important to help dull that imposter syndrome that we might

feel. But also, yeah, just Acknowledging that we make [00:50:00] mistakes and we’re all flawed, like we said before, you know, I think that’s important.

Um, but as for the, the program, the mental health first aid stuff, you know, I, I did do a very short, comparatively like a few hours or something around accidental counseling in the past. Um, and that was helpful, but a two day course, so much more depth of information and knowledge and, and interactive, you know, case informed, like, you know, um,

activities, group activities, unpacking stuff.

It really helped build my skills. Um, and I know I’ve joked about this, but for me personally, you know, entering that space and talking about the green and the red and the orange zone, I was like, ah. I’m in the red zone. You know, I’ve been in the red zone for months, and I need to tap out of this space and give myself a bit of a break.

So it was super insightful on many levels. Uh, and you know, I made the tough decision not long after attending to [00:51:00] resign from one of my four dreamed jobs. Um, but, but I really needed to. And, you know, having the That five or six months off, um, of, you know, being so fortunate that I could afford to, uh, and just spending so much time sipping tea on the hammock with my Jack Russell in my lap and, you know, taking care of the little one after school and, you know, all that stuff.

Um, yeah, it was just what I needed to kind of repair my soul for the world and, and reenter the workforce and. And, and, you know, opportunities, like I said, kind of, I don’t know, the Earth tends to provide, um, well it has for me, I’m, I’m incredibly fortunate, um, and I feel like I’m exactly where I need to be at this point in time, which is pretty amazing.

I know.

Nick McEwan-Hall: good. I’m so happy to hear that. I’m so happy to hear that. So, so lovely for you. I, I think you deserve

that. I think you deserve that.

Olivia Brozecki: everybody does, really. Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. Well, yes, I agree with [00:52:00] that too, but I think, you know, to go through a period where you’re, where that belief is tested a bit to come to a point where you’re like, yeah, actually this is good.

It’s, it’s, it’s good. It’s lovely to hear.

Yeah.

It’s super lovely. I’m so happy for you Liv. Yeah. That’s really nice.

Olivia Brozecki: Thanks, Nick. You’re pretty

Nick McEwan-Hall: Oh, you’re so welcome. Let’s wrap up. I want to, I want to throw the kind of microphone to you. Is there something you’d like to tell the world? Anything? Or tell a particular person that might be listening? Um, it could be anything. I’m going to tell them they should all jump onto the Rainbow Network website and subscribe to your newsletter, which is way down the

Olivia Brozecki: You know, that button is not working. Oh, I’m sorry.

I know my IT person is onto it. But, um, if you want to be subscribed, send me an email, rainbow network, that email address is on the website and, uh, I’ll manually add you. That’s what the message is in the time being, if it doesn’t work.

Nick McEwan-Hall: We’ll put the,

Olivia Brozecki: If you’re trying and it doesn’t work, don’t give up, email me and I’ll, I’ll sort it for you.

[00:53:00] Um, but yeah,

Nick McEwan-Hall: So yeah. What do

you want the message. I’m thinking of my wife, my gorgeous wife, Sandra, who

Olivia Brozecki: may or may not tune in. Um, but if she does, I think she, uh, I had, what I haven’t said so far is, um, it’s just really refreshing to be at this stage in my life. I’m 40 years old now and, you know, yeah, over 20 years of career under my belt.

It is really nice, um, to kind of like feel like I can do my job and do it well enough but also leave enough energy for the other much more important things like family, um, you know, in, in my world. So thank you wife for all your support. Um, she’s pretty incredible and an absolute joy to, you know, mother our, our child together with.

So, [00:54:00] yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Nice.

Olivia Brozecki: down to the people closest to you, doesn’t it? You know, they make all the difference.

Nick McEwan-Hall: We need our bubble around us. Don’t we?

Olivia Brozecki: Absolutely.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. Oh, it’s a beautiful message. It’s a nice way for us to kind of round things out, but it’s very great. It’s been a wonderful chat. Thank you for sharing and giving us so richly your insights and sharing what your life’s been like. And yeah, it’s been a real pleasure talking to you today and just Knowing you and being professionally connected to you as well, of course.

But

yeah, thanks so much for coming on to our, uh, onto our little podcast here, and we really appreciate it. And word has it you’re on it, going on a holiday soon.

So enjoy

Olivia Brozecki: I know, I’m tracing my family roots and yeah, going to see the little house, the dilapidated little house that my mother grew up in, in a little country town in Bosnia. So I’m super excited. It’s been so fun talking to my, my older Zia’s and Zior’s about the past and you know, they just get, they light up and get so animated talking about it.

And [00:55:00] many of them are not well enough to travel back. And so capturing, capturing some great photos and maybe making a book in the future for him. Yeah. I’m looking forward to all that.

Nick McEwan-Hall: deserve that too. Sounds like we’ll, um, it sounds like we’ll have to do another

Olivia Brozecki: Oh my goodness. Yes. Thanks so much, Nick. You take care.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Travel safely. Thanks

Olivia Brozecki: No worries. Have a good one.