Navigating Mental Health and Disability: A Conversation with Kym McMinn

Interview Transcript

Nick McEwan-Hall: Hi, and welcome to another episode of The Mental Health Couch with me, Nick McEwan-Hall. In today’s episode, I’m talking with someone I met at a course I ran in Bendigo. 

Kym McMinn: Currently, I run an NDIS business.

Nick McEwan-Hall: I’ve worked with Kym for a few years now, helping to upskill the team in her business, T&K Support Services, which is an NDIS support business based on the outskirts of Melbourne. Much of their work includes supporting people with mental health, and Kim’s own personal story of supporting her son with his mental health is eye-opening and inspiring in equal measure. I love working with Kym, and I think you’re really going to enjoy listening into our conversation.

Just a heads up, this episode touches on themes of mental health, mental illness, and suicide. Take care while listening. 

Joining us today is Kim McMinn, Managing Director of T&K Support Services. T&K provides disability support services to people across Northern Melbourne. Kym’s got a wealth of experience and skills in the disability space as well as the mental health space. And I’ve been so lucky to work with Kym’s team over the last few years. 

 

It’s an absolute pleasure to welcome her to the podcast. Welcome Kym. 

 

Kym McMinn: Thank you. 

 

Nick McEwan-Hall: Welcome along. Let’s get straight into it. Let’s let the audience and listener know you better. Tell us a little bit about your background. Tell us your story, Kym.

Kym McMinn: So we’re a family-run business called T&K Support Services. We support individuals living with disabilities and we’re about to launch services now into aged care.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Oh, wow!

Kym McMinn: Which is exciting. So we’re based northwest of Melbourne, so regional Victoria towards Ballarat and we cater for clients from Melton all the way to Ballarat and areas in between. We have a main hub in Ballan where we offer a day program for our participants. They can come three days a week to join in activities and capacity-building activities as well.

And we’ve got quite a few group homes now in-home care, community access and lots more. I guess the latest thing that we’ve added is our community disco, that we run once a month.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Haha, I’ve seen these on social media; they look fun.

Kym McMinn: Yeah, so that’s pretty fun. But yeah, that’s what’s happening at the moment.

Nick McEwan-Hall: It’s been a real growth for you over the last couple of years. I think when I first met you. You weren’t quite where you are now, which is really exciting and to hear about the aged care stuff sounds interesting too.

Kym McMinn: Yes. So that’s my background. I’ve got a lot of background in aged care, so it’s the grassroots of where I came from. I’ve had it on my radar for a little while now, so it’s just time.

Nice. To get that started. Yeah,

Nick McEwan-Hall: cool. And will that be the NDIS-type space or more aged care system? No,

Kym McMinn: there’s NDIS, so that supports people with disabilities, usually under the age of 65. Mm hmm. Over 65, it’s My Aged Care. Ah, okay. So, it’s a different funding stream.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, cool. Yeah. That sounds exciting.

Even I didn’t know that. So, that must be something new. That’s exciting.

Kym McMinn: That is exciting. Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Take us back a little bit. What made you decide to start T&K? What was that story? How did you come to that point?

Kym McMinn: So, I started my career as a teacher’s aide at an autistic school. Okay. I sort of did that after I had my oldest boy, Lockie, then I was in that for a bit.

I was quite happy just doing that and raising him because I was single. Then I met my ex-partner who I’ve got two more children with him and I had grew our family. And when we did that, I had two children close together, so I couldn’t really go back to that job because it was going to be expensive childcare, basically.

So, I landed a job as a carer in a nursing home, and I really loved it. And that’s what led me to do nursing and then I did nursing for quite a long time. Then we had a significant event happen in the family, which was Lockie and what happened to him and that he was probably my inspiration to start looking after other people and provide them with.

Some support, because not everybody had that same support work. Mmm. Yeah, support network that he had.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. And I guess you probably would have seen a lot of that in your work, like at your job. That support or lack of support.

Kym McMinn: Yes. Would have been

Nick McEwan-Hall: really clear, I’m guessing.

Kym McMinn: Yeah, it is. And it’s across the board, so it wasn’t just in mental health, but it was in aged care, too.

There was lots of people that I looked after that didn’t have many people around anymore. Like, it was a bit sad. Some people have got great support networks, and that’s great, but there’s some people that don’t, so I feel like that’s what kind of drives what I do.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah, because the work that you do at T&K is very much about supporting connection and enablement and capacity and those sorts of things.

Kym McMinn: Yes. From what I can see, anyway. And empowerment as well. Sometimes, when we get people to come over to our service, they’ve just been told that this is the way it is and this is what they need to accept. So we do a lot of empowerment, and this is your choice now, and you get to live life how you want to live it. So, giving them more choices.

Nick McEwan-Hall: I bet that’s nice.

Kym McMinn: It is nice, but sometimes you create that monster. Yeah, but yeah, it’s cool.

Nick McEwan-Hall: I get the sense you wouldn’t have it any other way. No, absolutely not. Yeah. Oh, it’s really interesting. Okay, cool. And I knew some of that story, but not all of it. So, it’s interesting to hear that.

And from my experience working with you and your team, I can see that. I can see all of those things that you do and how they show up to do that work as well. It’s really, it’s really clear. Yeah, okay. You mentioned in there that Lockie, your son, was a big inspiration for starting T&K. It was connected there.

Kym McMinn: Yeah. So, with him, a bit of his story is that he’s a suicide survivor. He had an attempt in 2020 that was quite significant. So, I guess the reason it came from was that the tricky path of navigating the system was really rough. Um, and really hard, and often I would visit him or even some of the time I couldn’t visit him cause it was actually through COVID, but yeah, it was really hard.

He would be in hospital cause there were some times when that was the only option we had just for safety reasons. And there were a lot of people that he was there with,h and he met some people, and he’s still in contact with some of those people, which is really nice.

But they didn’t have anyone bringing the Maccas, or they didn’t have anyone just popping in and making sure you had your treats because, during those times, that’s all you can really do is just be there and give something that’s going to make you feel a bit happier that moment.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. Practical support.

Kym McMinn: Yeah. It’s just iI; it’s just basic, and it’s really down to basics. Yeah. So. There was a lot of that, so I just used to feel like we could be doing so much more to help these people. Mm. Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: And I, I guess, too, like support in the mental health space, yeah, there’s that sort of support when it’s happening.

So, as you described, like when Lockie’s in hospital getting treatment, that kind of stuff, and then there’s all of that sort of support that’s preventative to that as well, right? Ideally, we would wish that all of that support would help people avoid needing that level of treatment, but the reality around this stuff is that.

Hospital treatment is the right thing for some people at some points in their life. At that time, yeah. That’s tricky. It is, yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Talk to me a little bit about what you did and do for Lachie in that preventative kind of way. And I guess that probably is different now from what it would have been back in 2020. But I’m thinking about it in 2020. Yeah. What was it like then?

Kym McMinn: I felt like, at that point in time, we were basically just trying to keep him alive. As terrible as that sounds. It was just a fight to keep him here. Yeah. So we used to just try and manage it as much as we could at home until it got too much, and he would have to have a bit of a hospital stay. And that was only really just to give us a little bit of respite. 

Kym McMinn: They used to do some medication changes, but I remember really early on in the journey, they told me that it was going to take years to get the meds right. And I was like, no, no, no, we’ll get this right first go, but it wasn’t the case.

Nick McEwan-Hall: It’s a lovely wish and intention to hold, isn’t it? It’s like, yeah, that’s. But the reality in this space can be really different from what we think it’s going to be. It’s different. Yeah, it’s just, yeah, it is just different.

Kym McMinn: It is because if you think about a physical illness, the treatment course is usually quite simple, and you’ve got to do this. These are the medications that work, whereas when it’s a psychiatric illness. There are a lot of different medications; some work better than others. It’s not a one-size-fits-all approach. Everybody’s different. So, it is challenging. You do see a lot of different doctors as well, and they have differing opinions.

Yep. Yep.

Kym McMinn: Yeah. So they like to add a diagnosis here, add a medication, and change that up. And it’s a bit of a battle, actually.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And because it’s happening over that protracted timeframe as well, there’s a level of frustration and fatigue that I think sometimes happens here. It’s we are doing the things we need to do. It doesn’t seem to be giving us the kind of result as fast as we’d like it to.

Kym McMinn: Yeah, that’s right.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah, that’s right. And especially when you start to compare that to physical health, where we often, not always, but we often have a very kind of like, yep, when this happens, we do this. That’s how long that takes. You know, if you think about a broken bone, we know how to fix that. We know roughly how long a broken bone is going to take to fix itself or not.

Like, we’ll know at what point that treatment is working, or isn’t it? It’s more clear, I guess than sometimes our mental health stuff. And we just don’t have that level of understanding, maybe of mental health stuff. But also, sometimes mental health stuff is just so complicated that it’s not going to happen. It’s not going to exist that way.

Kym McMinn: It is. And there are a lot of things that need to happen, too. There’s a lot involved. There’s medication. There’s therapy. There’s support. Yeah. There’s getting through the bad days. There’s so much involved.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You shared with me. Some of that journey before in the past, and I’ve always had this sense that, you know, you and your family have just absolutely been there for lucky, like no matter what, like he needs when he needs it, you’re doing I,t and you’ve made it sound.

Pretty straightforward and pretty easy, but I know it’s not easy, but how do you look back at all the things that you and Lockie have done together for Lockie now? Looking back, how does that look when you look in the revision mirror? What’s your reflection?

Kym McMinn: I feel glad that we’re through that part, and I’m very grateful that we’re given a second chance with Lockie to start because it was pretty dire. We could have lost him. So I’m pretty grateful that we had that chance. I think when it happened, I had no idea he was suffering. 

So when I was given the chance that he was going to be okay, I was like, we’ve got to do everything we can to make sure this doesn’t happen again, number one. But I look back, and I think I remember being in the thick of it and feeling like it was never going to get any better.

I – I felt like Lockie would be dependent on us forever. I felt like he was just surviving for us. I didn’t feel like he really wanted, he, well, he didn’t wanna be here, and I felt like he was just doing it because it would make us sad if he didn’t.

So I felt a bit of guilt, and wow, I’m just making him do this. And it felt hopeless that that was never gonna change for him. But now I’m grateful that we just kept punching because although it felt like that at the time, Every day we were making some progress, I feel lucky that he’s, and to him like he’s done the work, we’ve supported him, but he’s done the work.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah, I think that’s a unique thing around the mental health recovery kind of treatment process, I think, maybe that’s not right; I was going to say very little happens without the person doing work, the work and they want to do the work has to kind of be there for us to get the biggest result, the way I think about it.

I think sometimes when we’re at the bottom of the well, that deep, dark pit, and we’re like, Oh, it can feel like nothing’s going on. But actually, when you zoom back out and look back, you g., actually, stuff was happening just at the time. It was just not clear, and it didn’t feel like it. I bet there were times when you just thought you were going backwards.

Kym McMinn: Yeah, well, you did take a few steps forward and 10 back, or Lockie’s really good at masking as well. So, hence, why? What happened? But he’s very good at masking. Every now and then, I think things are going great. And then all of a sudden, he’s no, it’s not. I’m like, I thought it was fine. 

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah, I think sometimes masking is, but we all do it, right? We all wear those masks and try to project out to the world that things are okay or they’re different from the way they are.

Kym McMinn: Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: And I think sometimes that can be a bit confusing for external people to look at somebody and go. Are they masking, or are they actually coping with something that’s going on? It can be really hard to work out which is which.

Kym McMinn: Yeah. And I think as a mum, your instinct is to fix, as he sort of got better. He needed me to be there and nurture and fix him for a period of time. But as he started to recover, he was like, I need to do this on my own. So, some of that was not telling me because I would try to jump in and fix it, but he wanted to navigate that himself. So it could have been that as well.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. All this is so complicated. It’s so complicated and so individual, I think, depending on who’s involved and what’s going on for them and what’s not going on for them. It’s just, I think, part of why mental health is so important. Kind of a mysterious thing to people because it is so individual. As we can see, depression is depression, anxiety is anxiety, and psychosis is psychosis.

Within that, everyone’s experience is different, and it can be different every time that same person has an episode of whatever it is. So I think sometimes we have this expectation that we can manage it or respond, and we’re always going to be able to see it. And I think it’s just such a slippery thing that when we set that expectation for ourselves, it’s actually really unfair. We just can’t have that expectation. 

Kym McMinn: No, you can’t. Actually, I think there are no right or wrong answers. You’ve just got to keep it. Trying. Just keep trying. Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: And look at the results you’ve got.

Kym McMinn: Yeah. That’s what I mean by when I look back and think now; I wouldn’t have thought this two years ago. I am really proud of him and how far he’s come.

And as a family, how far we’ve come as well, because I think we’ve all learned, like we’ve got, Locke is the oldest, so we’ve got the younger ones that are well into their teen years now.

Kym McMinn: Yeah. It’s helped me with. Them, and I think when Lockie, there was a time where he would be quite hard on himself and put himself down. One thing I would say to him is, but you’ve taught me a lot, and you’ve helped me with the other kids because things that I probably did wrong with you, I’m not doing wrong with them because I’ve learned you’re helping me because you’re teaching me.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah, that’s how we work, isn’t it, as humans? We have experiences, we learn from them, we change, that’s just the, that’s what happens.

Kym McMinn: Yeah, that’s life, isn’t it? I do feel like mums are a bit like, no, you’ve got to get it right, whereas I’m like, no, you can think that you’re going to get it all right until they become teenagers, and then you’ve got no hope.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Teenagers.

Kym McMinn: Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah, teenage years. It is a hard time, and it’s such a stressful formative time for all of us. We’ve all been through it. It was all difficult for everybody. I think no,w like in today’s kind of world, teens and I think often just think about high school age students and even younger, but the world’s so different and so full on for them that we should almost expect that there’s going to be some challenges from a mental health perspective that may not be a mental illness but just poor mental health.

And get wrapped around that early. Yeah, I think so. It’s all the stuff that we know but can be hard to apply, I think, because of the relationship. So, this is my kid, or this is my mom, or this is my partner, and it’s, I don’t know if I can, but actually, it’s just first aid. It’s just that kind of thing; they’re going through a health thing, a health status that we should respond to. 

Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like you’ve got a lot to be proud of.

Kym McMinn: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, we’re always growing.

Nick McEwan-Hall: And look, that’s popped itself up as T&K, like T&K. Yes. That kind of thing that you’re saying there about doing as much as you can for people and helping build their capacity, that’s what you do at T&K, but I can so see how that experience of supporting Lockie kind of shows up in the work at T&K, like in terms of why you want to do it.

Kym McMinn: There’s also the other element of, so Lockie has hidden disabilities being ADHD, and he was later diagnosed with autism. I’ve found a really strong link between that and his mental health status. S,o a lot of his anxiety and the way he operates has derived from his neurodivergence. So, I think that if we work out a way to put the two together and support both,

And I think that if we. Can get around people with the hidden sort of disabilities and the neurological stuff. We can prevent some mental health challenges because, like with schooling, for example, it’s a sort of one-size-fits-all approach. I think that if we get around these kids at a younger age and have a different way of teaching them, we adapt to them.

Their self-worth is going to be better because they’re going to be able to learn. I think a lot of Lockie’s stuff comes from not being able to learn properly at school. Yeah. Just being overlooked. He was a bit of a class clown because he was good at being funny but not very good at his schoolwork, all that type of stuff.

And that really did affect him later in life. He has felt like he wasn’t good enough or he was stupid. Yeah, but he wasn’t; he just had a different brain. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I think that’s how I have my passion for disability, and I can tell you a high percentage of our clientele do have mental illness as well as a disability.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. Like a physical disability.

Kym McMinn: Either physical or a hidden disability type situation or intellectual, or they have a disability that presents itself as a mental health challenge. S,o for example, schizophrenia or. Bipolar disorders affect your day-to-day functioning.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. Yeah. It’s so interesting in that little last 20 seconds of our conversation, I said, Oh, physical disability.

Yeah. It’s part of the story. I don’t know about disability. And I’m like, physical disability. But then, of course, you said the intellectual disability as well, which is. Not a physical disability. I guess maybe what I was thinking was more along that language that you’ve been using about visible and invisible.

Yes, that’s right. Yeah. I can see some disabilities; I can’t see others. And on that mental health side of the disability spectrum, I’m constantly, all day, every day, every week, telling people, you can see it if you’re looking and you know what you’re seeing, but Yeah, just the language becomes really important.

That’s what just popped out to me: the language that we use about disability or just about people can be so instantly inclusive or not.

Kym McMinn: Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. That’s really interesting. That’s something I’ve kind of, I think,

Kym McMinn: Yeah, the majority of our participants don’t have a physical disability. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So we support around 50 people. Amazing. And I think maybe only a handful do have a physical disability. A lot of it is an intellectual disability, actually. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I supported another girl who’s got an intellectual disability coupled with mental health challenges. So she’s another one, but obviously her.

Intellectual disability is quite severe, so that makes the mental health stuff a lot trickier because she can’t actually process or understand why.

Nick McEwan-Hall: It sounds incredibly tricky. Thank goodness there are skilled, empathetic people like you and your team around to help people do that, to understand it, to work with it, and to work around it, too.

Find ways through all of that stuff. It must make such a difference, or it does make such a difference.

Kym McMinn: Yeah, it does. It does. It actually does. 

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah, 100%. A good friend of mine recently explained to me that they’ve been diagnosed with being on the autism spectrum. So they have an autism spectrum disorder diagnosis or a label, I guess.

And in the past, we’d really done a lot of work together to support his mental health, and Yeah, it does. He said to me, now that I understand how my brain works, I’m so much less distressed by the world because when what was happening in the past was he would get distressed about insert thing here,e and that distress was coming from not understanding it or perhaps he was running late to work for some reason, and that’s come from his autistic trait, right?

So he’s having that happen. Then he knows that’s not meant to happen. He doesn’t know why it’s happening, but he knows it’s quote-unquote wrong. And then he got so stressed and distressed,d and that actually turned the mental illness up, and he spends so much time in that space that it becomes mental illness and high distress.

So now, when he understands how his brain works, as you’ve described, his mental health is so much better. Yeah, it’s amazing. It’s not perfect, but it’s so much better. I guess it’s more manageable. He can cope with that stuff more. And the difference. It’s profound.

Kym McMinn: It is actually, yeah, it’s huge. I was doing some reading because I do lots of reading and research because I like to find stuff out, so there’s actually a really strong link between people being diagnosed with bipolar, and then later it’s actually being re-diagnosed as autism. Interesting. So, apparently, the two are quite similar in presentation.

Yeah. One of Lockie’s initial diagnoses was bipolar, but now he’s later being diagnosed with autism. So it’s very interesting to know whether maybe he’s got both or if he just has autism. Cause it does create a lot of anxiety, especially if they don’t know they have it.

Kym McMinn: Yeah. They don’t understand. Yeah. They just think their brain’s going overdrive, and they’re running late, and they’re wondering why they’re stressing out, but it’s because their brain’s telling them that you’re not allowed to be late.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah, the world’s telling them that. The world’s going, no one else is like. Yeah, why are you late? That’s right. I don’t know. Now I’m stressed. It makes so much sense. Yeah. It just makes so much logical sense. I think, too, that our understanding of this stuff is changing and evolving so quickly as well. So maybe five years ago, maybe even two years ago, the ADHD conversation wasn’t as present and known and understood.

Kym McMinn: Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: So now.

Kym McMinn: It’s very known now, isn’t it? ADHD. Yeah. It’s just like a normalised thing, really.

Nick McEwan-Hall: People often ask me in mental health first aid training, they’re like, Oh, this prevalence, do you think there’s more of this happening? And I’m like, I don’t think there’s more happening. I just think we’re more aware of it.

Yeah, that’s right. And that’s good. Like, it’s good, but it’s always been here. It’s not actually new. This prevalence has always been the way that it is. It’s just that our awareness has shifted, and we’re more aware of it. So it feels like there’s more of it. It’s actually, it’s always been here. Yeah. We just haven’t been, it just hasn’t been knowing about that hasn’t

Kym McMinn: It used to be hidden really well.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t think we understood it. I don’t think we did. I don’t think we understood it as well as we do. No, I

Kym McMinn: know. I didn’t like it, so Locke did receive a diagnosis of A DHD as a young boy. There were definitely traits he had that were out there. He’s 23 now, so that was when he was five, so, say, 18 years ago. Not even 20 years ago. There was a huge stigma associated with it.

I actually got the diagnosis because I knew something wasn’t right as his mum, but being a young mum, I was quickly labelled that I wasn’t disciplining him enough or I wasn’t. Yeah,h now I look back, I wish I was who I am now then because I would have probably eaten him alive.

When we got a script for Ritalin, I told his teacher, I told some family members, and I was quickly told that’s rubbish, throw it in the bin, he doesn’t need that, he needs to learn the word no more, that sort of, so I threw it in the bin as they said, and that actually affected his learning, so that’s why it’s so important that we.

Be careful how you respond to things, and don’t give advice unless you actually have the facts behind you to back them up.

Nick McEwan-Hall: A hundred per cent. Yeah. And it’s tough, right? I can imagine for you, as a young mom, hearing all of those opinions, all of that, and they weren’t just opinions, hearing all that going on, maybe you’re right, like, maybe you’re right, maybe I’m wrong, like, maybe you’re right.

And yeah, that’s how this stuff works, isn’t it? Like, this stigma stuff, it’s if more people are, If more people out there appear to hold this opinion, then they’re probably right, just on volume, and it’s like, no, it’s actually not. But that’s how our society works, isn’t it? We’re constantly pushing against that to try and get the right things happening for people.

Kym McMinn: Yeah, just to, yeah. I think it’s just, you know, you need to be responsible. In the information you give to people, and if you don’t know that information, then don’t give it because an opinion is just an opinion, right? It’s not facts. Yeah. So, I mean, it was back in the day when it was, I think, they used to call ADHD, and they used to say a dickhead dad.

“Oh, is that what that is?” Yeah. I’ve never liked all this stuff, and it actually made me hide his diagnosis. I actually didn’t tell many teachers that he had it, and I was very against him having that label.

So I thought, no, he doesn’t need that label because of that experience. But later down the track, we really needed that diagnosis. It was actually really helpful; that’s why I said I feel that people need to be more responsible in what they do. Especially to people that are younger and inexperienced, they don’t have that education behind them and, yeah, and I’m a mum, even though I was young, I still, I knew that there was something wrong,

Nick McEwan-Hall: yeah, a hundred per cent.

We’ve talked before about the diagnosis and the label that comes with the diagnosis, and I’m curious about your thoughts about that. So you said just then that. Even though you had that diagnosis or the label of ADHD, you didn’t tell the teachers about that; you didn’t want to tell the teachers about that because of probably how they might have responded or how you were worried they’d respond perhaps, but then later that diagnosis is really useful, talk us through that a little bit because that’s something I hear a lot about in the work that I do.

People go, “Oh, do they have the diagnosis or not?” And I’m a bit like, “Do they have the illness or not? Do they have the condition or not?” That’s probably what’s important. But why are labels important in our world?

Kym McMinn: So I feel that there are a few different reasons why they’re important. I’m with you, though, Nick; I don’t feel that they matter that much. What matters is that the person is diagnosed appropriately and then is given the appropriate treatment. Agreed. However, in the world that we live in, with all these different funding streams we have for people like the NDIS, the mental health system, and the health system, so in order to get help, you need the diagnosis.

So, I feel like that’s a big contributor. Yeah. Why it’s so important. Absolutely. It unlocks stuff,

Nick McEwan-Hall: Right? It does unlock stuff. It unlocks funding and unlocks support. It unlocks, yeah. Whatever else. Yeah.

Kym McMinn: But then again, like I said, I think. Lockie has received so many different diagnoses, but he’d only probably have three or four of those things. Imagine if we were treating every single one of them like it couldn’t; that’s right. I don’t know that they’re always accurate, either.

Nick McEwan-Hall: I think, um, yeah, the accuracy is interesting. Isn’t it? I think. It’s not like a blood test; you can do a blood test and go, that’s how much iron you’ve got in your blood, like whatever it is, you know, I’m not a doctor, I’m really not a doctor like you can measure the physical stuff in a lot of ways, mental health you can, but it’s softer, it’s a bit more like a this is my opinion, it feels more like a guide rather than a like, that’s what’s happening, sometimes with some illnesses it’s very clear, yeah, that person has a panic attack, or that person is, Having suicidal ideation, that’s clear, right?

There are moments of that clarity, but I think in the outsider crisis in the mental health space, sometimes it’s not that clear. The discussion can be good, but I don’t know about the diagnosis. I just think the diagnosis or the labels are not always that helpful. Yeah. Particularly when, like, lots of mental health stuff can respond well to stuff that’s not medication, and we don’t need a diagnosis for those things, but I hear what you’re saying about The diagnosis and the label unlocking supports.

Yeah. And I’ve heard plenty of stories of people who go, yeah, I’m definitely going through this, but I don’t want that label. I’m not going to go and get it. Yeah. And that, unfortunately, for a lot of the time, means that they’re locked out of the support. So, NDIS is a great example if they don’t get the label or the diagnosis of disability that meets the criteria for NDIS support.

That’s right. They can’t get it. They can’t get the support. Yeah. Even if they really need them. And I get that. I get it in a world that has such a stigma about illness, particularly mental illness. Yeah, why would you want that label? You wouldn’t want it. Yeah. Because, like you said, you’re worried about the teachers.

People are worried about what the world is going to say. What’s work going to say? What’s, what’s all this sort of stuff? Yeah. It’s just, yeah, the labels are a really interesting thing. If someone was saying to you, Kym McMinn, should I go and get the label or not? Should I go and get a diagnosis or not? What would your kind of advice, maybe not advice, be to that person? What do you think?

Kym McMinn: Depending on why they wanted to get the diagnosis. If there was somebody that I looked at and thought they really need some support, I’d be saying, yep, you need to get that done. Because it’s

Nick McEwan-Hall: Going to unlock that support.

Kym McMinn: Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.

Kym McMinn: But I know a lot of people that are self-diagnosed ADHD and even a bit of Asperger’s and autism, and they’re all just like, yeah, I’ve got it, but I don’t care. I’m fine. Yeah. I work. I don’t mind. If people don’t like me, that’s just fine. I don’t care. You know.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Go for it.

Kym McMinn: I think mental illness; I would be pushing for the diagnosis because. Although it’s not all about medication, if it’s a significant mental illness, we need that medication to start. Yeah. Because otherwise, we could look at things like psychosis and Absolutely.

Yeah. So, although therapy, I feel like with Lockie’s recovery, therapy has been a huge part of that. His psychology has been that they’re equally weighted.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. And this is the thing, isn’t it? And it’s not that dissimilar with physical health; there are so many physical health conditions we have. A GP or a professional will say, yes, here’s a medication you need, but also make sure you’re exercising, make sure you’re eating well and make sure you’re connecting with other people.

And it’s exactly the same in physical health land, really, like at nuts and bolts level, it’s the same advice, but over in mental health land, we’re like, what? It just’s so strange to me how we think differently about those two things when they’re actually quiet. Similar in many ways.

Kym McMinn: Yeah, they are.

Nick McEwan-Hall: As a health state.

Kym McMinn: I think it goes back to the stigma and

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah, I think you’re right. Yeah. Otherwise, why wouldn’t people be going to the GP? Yes. I feel sad all the time.

Kym McMinn: I need you to Help me. Yeah, that’s right.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Why wouldn’t they be walking into work going Yeah,

Kym McMinn: and how many times do you hear, No, I’ve got this, I don’t need any help, I’ll be right, I’ll push through, I’ll get through it.

Nick McEwan-Hall: And we hear that with mental health as much as physical health. Yeah, people go, Oh no, I’ve got a sore knee, but I’ll be right. Really? How about we get some support? 

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah, yeah. Wow. It’s such a long, interesting, and intense journey that you’ve been on, but it sounds like it’s really led you to a place where it’s like the work that you’re doing and how you do that work.

Kym McMinn: Yeah, it’s made it really meaningful to me. And although I don’t understand having a disability, I don’t understand having a mental illness. So I’m not going to say that I understand because I don’t, but I’ve got experience supporting people and loved ones with it. Um, so I might not understand what it feels like to be in that mental health crisis.

I know what it feels like to support someone. I think before this stuff happened with Lockie, I was that person that was like, push through, you got to keep going, tomorrow’s a new day, all that type of stuff, because that’s my coping, right, so that’s how I get through each day. That’s probably because I don’t have a mental illness.

So, like, I can do that. Right. So, without realising, I’d actually taught Lockie to do that, but it didn’t work for him because he’s got a mental illness. So it’s going to be different for him. So I think for me, it was like, wow, hang on a second. It’s not as easy as just pushing through. It’s, it’s not a weakness.

It’s an illness. It’s like. Really changed my view. I haven’t always been this way. I’ve been on the other side of it where I was like, come on, just come on, pick yourself up. You can do this. You’re fine. You’re, you’re okay. I’ve also been that person as well. So, and I

Nick McEwan-Hall: I think we can all be that person for some people sometimes as well, and it can be true, too.

Right? So if someone’s struggling, we can say, keep going, but also let’s do this. So yeah, keep going. But we’re going to do that. We’re going to keep going like this. We’re going to keep going with this supporter. We’re going to keep going by adding this thing on. So. It’s useful, but it’s got to be in the right shape, I think.

Kym McMinn: Yeah, correct. Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: And it’s easy, I think, to resist that idea that somebody’s really struggling and that pushing is not going to work by itself.

Kym McMinn: Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: And because the rest of it’s hard, we just kind of go, come on, you’ll be right. And what we mean is, you’ll be right because I’ve got your back, or you’ll be right because we’ve got these things in, but we don’t say that bit.

I mean, I think we have to say that bit.

Kym McMinn: I think that’s good advice. Actually, for anyone suffering from a mental illness, it is important to be clear about what you’re saying to them. So, like I was talking to you before about fixing things, it maybe encourages them to be clear with us as well on what they need because he stopped talking to me about stuff because I was trying to fix everything for him.

And he was at that phase where he was like, I want to fix this myself. I can do this on my own. I don’t need my mom’s help. I’m sick of relying on her. I’m going to do this alone, which kind of was good in some ways, but in other ways, sometimes you do need the support, and that’s okay. So I got to a point, and I was like, why didn’t you tell me before I got to this point because you would have tried to fix it.?And I said, and then I went away and reflected, and then I said to him later, I was like, can you just say that when you’re telling me, can you just say, I don’t want you to fix it?

Yeah.

Kym McMinn: I’m just fencing. So I know. Because when you come to me with a problem, I feel like I need to fix it. But if you tell me not to, then I won’t.

Yeah.

Kym McMinn: So, yeah. We need to be teaching them to give us the information we need, and we give them the information they need. So, it’s really transparent and honest.

Nick McEwan-Hall: A hundred per cent. I think that’s really true. And we talk about this in Mental Health First Aid, right? People will be able to do that, right? Some people won’t because of their health state, right?

Yeah. So, some people will be able to say. Mom, I don’t want you to fix it. So I’m not telling you. But some people won’t be able to give you that context. So what they do to get the result that they want is just stop talking to you. And you’re like, what’s going on? And they’re like, that’s my strategy. This is missing a beat that’s tricky, so I have another friend who I support sometimes, and when something’s happening, when I think something’s going on, I’ll say to them, I think something’s going on, and we know what we mean, so we’ve got that culture where I say that it’s like something mental healthy is going on for you.

I’m worried about you, that kind of thing, and I’ve noticed it. So, what version of me do you want? Do you want Nick, the friend? Do you want to know t what my mental health first aid brains are doing? Do you want a counsellor kind of view on this? What do you want? And giving them that choice, so then they can go, I don’t want you to fix it, I don’t want your advice, I just want you to listen, that’s cool, I have to, sometimes I have to give them to walk into that situation and say, something’s going on, which tool should we use so that they don’t have to then tell me, Nick, I need this version of you today because they can’t.

Kym McMinn: They can’t. Yeah, that’s right. They’re

Nick McEwan-Hall: not able to at that moment. That’s right. Or it’s really hard for them to do. It comes with a cost, or it’s just too difficult for them to do. So, when giving them options, I think it’s this balance, isn’t it? Yeah. Going into them and going, what’s going on? Why aren’t you talking to me?

It’s, Hey, I think something’s going on. Yes. How can we talk? How can we work in this situation? What’s possible rather than going? Are you doing this, or are you not doing that? Yeah. I hope I’m making myself clear, but I think. Yeah, you are. Yep. During the last couple of months in mental health first aiding, I really noticed this kind of thing about people going. Should I or shouldn’t I have this conversation?

Yeah. So, we walk through life, and we see stuff going on, and their thought process is, should I or shouldn’t I have this conversation with that person? Should I walk up to them, talk to them, get into their world and put it on the table, or shouldn’t I? And the more we have this conversation, the more convinced I am that it’s a dumb question.

It’s not the right question because if I say to them, do you want to help them? They’ll say, yeah, of course I do. I’m like, then that’s the wrong question because you’ve already answered that. Should I or shouldn’t I? It’s already answered. You want to. So, what’s the right question? And I think it’s actually, okay, there’s someone in my world who needs my support.

I have my imaginary character, Bob, from Accounts. So, Bob from Accounts needs support. The question I think we should ask ourselves is something like, How will I support him, or how can I?

Kym McMinn: Yeah, not should I, shouldn’t I? Yeah. Yeah, there’s always a way.

Nick McEwan-Hall: It’s very binary, and there’s a 50 50 per cent chance that you just won’t support them.

It would be a yes, no question. Yeah. It’s probably more than 50 per cent in that. Yeah. It’s, yeah, it’s an interesting thing. I think, yeah.

We just went on a big old tangent there, but I think, yeah, there are so many opportunities where we can help people. We have to tell them that we want to, and we have to give them the map. We have to give them the tool to say, what do you need from me? How can I help you in the best way? Yeah, that’s

Kym McMinn: Yeah, that’s right. And

Nick McEwan-Hall: trust them.

Kym McMinn: Yeah, that’s right.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. What would you think about it in terms of looking back over that whole experience supporting Lockie? What’s the one thing you’ve learned from all of that or the kind of the biggest thing that you’ve learned from that whole experience, do you reckon?

Kym McMinn: It’s probably around being a mum the most. It has taught me a lot professionally, but supporting a loved one and supporting people professionally are two really different things. Oh, yeah, what I used to say to Lockie and his siblings is that they’d come to me and say I’ve had a really bad day at school.

I’m sad, or I’m feeling this way or that way. And I used to say, no, you’re not, you’re fine. You’re not feeling that way. And they’d be like, well, yes, I am. And I’d be like, no, you’re not, you’re fine. You don’t have anything to be sad about. Look at your life. You’ve got all this amazing stuff. Look at all your toys.

So I think after having this experience, I looked back on that, and I went, wow, actually told my kids how they felt. It came from a place of love because I didn’t want them to feel hurt or sad. I didn’t want them to have any of those yucky feelings, but what I’ve learned is that they have to have those yucky feelings and that it’s okay.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. They’re going to have them.

Kym McMinn: Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. We all have them. Of course, as a mom, you want to protect them from that, but I think you’re not really doing them a service if you are. Protecting them from those feelings because instead of shutting those feelings down, it’s more about helping them through the feelings.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah, so, is it more about then, you don’t protect them from the feelings, but you want to protect them from any negative impact that those feelings might, like, truly negative impact that might have, beyond just, I feel yuck, and that’s negative, but yeah, you don’t want them to have a, a negative experience or a really.

Yeah, that’s pretty much. Yeah, so, like, they should have it, but I’m gonna. Help them have it; help them through it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I get what you’re saying. That’s really good advice. Yeah. Especially if you’re supporting someone who is so close to you, like you and your son. Yeah. Or your parent or your loved one.

Kym McMinn: It is because you, as a parent, actually tell your children how you and they feel. Yeah. And I look back on it now, and I’m like, I can’t believe I actually Did that, like, I can’t believe I told someone how they feel because those feelings belong to them. Yeah. They’re not mine. So I think, yeah, but I think you don’t want them to feel things that you’ve felt because you know how it feels.

Yeah. But they’re going to feel those things. They’re going to feel all the feels. So. Yeah, you’ve just got to switch it and help them through the feelings. I think that’s the biggest thing I’ve learned. And I think that you can’t; we’re not in control of everything. I think that a big part of being a mom for me was being in control of absolutely everything.

Yeah. And that’s not the case. You can’t.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. Yeah. And control what you can control, but the rest of it just catches and guides you.

Kym McMinn: Actually. I went through all the feelings with this, the grief, the guilt, all the yucky stuff that, how could I let this happen? Why us? Why him? How did I get this so wrong? All those yucky, so I think anyone else supporting a loved one should just be patient with yourself because we can’t really help these things.

Nick McEwan-Hall: I can imagine that must come up for you in the work at T&K, as well as supporting the people around those clients. Yeah, this is difficult. It’s harder. It’s not how we want it to be, or we’re having a struggle with this sort of thing. That’s okay like it sucks, but it’s okay to feel that way, and we’re also here to help you with that sort of thing. I think this experience has helped me to actually really empathise with families. So, um.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah, that must be huge.

Kym McMinn: Yeah, so some people might think that families are having difficulty. I don’t see it that way, so I see it as if they actually want the best for their loved one, and I see it as a positive thing when I’m being challenged by a family. I feel that’s a good positive thing, yeah, rather than God, that family’s back, and their hard work. I actually really respect that they’re hard workers, and they’re making us work hard because we should be working hard. We’re supporting their loved ones so.

Nick McEwan-Hall: 100 per cent just as you’ve wanted. Everyone that supported Lockie to work hard for Lockie, right? 

Kym McMinn: Correct. Yeah. It’s the same thing. If there have been people that weren’t working hard, I’ve called them on it, so I don’t expect anything less. 

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. It’s a good intention to hold. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s been a great conversation, Kym.

Thanks for sharing your story with us and for sharing all about your background, as well as Lockie’s background. We’ve covered a lot of ground, but I think the listeners here will be able to take a lot of little tips and tricks out of what you’ve been saying. Thank you so much for sharing with us. It’s been a real pleasure.

Thank you. You’ve been listening to The Mental Health Couch with me, Nick McKeen Hall. If you enjoyed today’s episode of the podcast, please subscribe to stay updated on all future episodes. You can also check out every episode from the podcast on our website at www.thementalhealthcoach.com.au.