Compassion in a Tote bag: The Journey of Bags for Strife, with Angela Allen

Nick McEwan-Hall: maybe we could start off by sharing a little bit about the story of banks for strife. You know, where did it start?

What happened and how did it come about? Yeah.

Angela Allen: Okay. Yeah. So, um, eight, nine years ago, um, my best friend Jude lost her husband to suicide. And we lived in a very archetypal English village. You know, a really pretty kind of, uh, community that close neighbors, you know, the church, the church bells r every quarter of an hour, irritatingly, three pubs, you know, all of the, just a lovely, lovely village where

nothing bad ever happens.

And then it turns out that. Bad things happen everywhere. Um, so Dougie took his own life and we kind of supported the family and, and from an external perspective, we’re really shocked by the lack of support that they received. And on the back of that, at, at that point, I was working not too far away, um, running another charity and, and I ended up talking to other people and, um, was linked in with kind of suicide prevention stuff with the local government there.

And another chap. And I set up a peer support group, uh, based on the experience that Judith had had with losing her husband, and also recognizing the fact that actually there was nothing locally for people. So, so we ran Tony, a chap called Tony, and I ran this group for probably 18 months. And then.

Suddenly suicide came crashing through my door.

So back in 2019, my youngest daughter, Katrina, took her own life completely out of the blue and unexpectedly. Um, and we were obviously overwhelmed by the grief of that. Um, and then seven months later, my husband, who was Kat’s stepdad also took his own life.

So, so those two, those three incidents starting with Dougie and then my own daughter and husband, um, it just, that that complete chasm of darkness that, that hits you um, was just. Incredible and nothing really there in terms of external support. My family, my friends, all brilliant, but actually of isolation when you lose somebody to suicide is, is really incredible.

And I hadn’t, I hadn’t appreciated that even though I’d run this peer support group. It’s only when it happens to you that you realize how lonely a place it is. And so, so that’s when the concept, the idea for bikes came about, that let’s do something that makes people feel less alone

Nick McEwan-Hall: Hmm.

Angela Allen: also just gives a, a helping hand, I suppose.

Um, knowing that there are other people out there who have faced that same journey

Nick McEwan-Hall: Hmm.

Angela Allen: is really important and. In some ways we do. We do provide advice, we do provide information on other services, but the most important thing I think that we provide is that compassion and love and understanding, and I think that are full off.

Nick McEwan-Hall: That’s a beautiful way to, to kind of frame up what the bags are full of. You know, they’re full of those things. They’re full of items of course, but they’re representative

of care and compassion and empathy and those sorts of things. Yeah. Wow. What an experience to have gone through Angela. Like just Yeah.

Wave after wave. Yeah. Just, yeah, full on. And, and for you, I suppose, outside of your family unit, but then inside really quickly and a couple of those waves, it just, yeah, it’s, um, there’s not often, I, I am a little bit speechless, Angela, but I dunno quite what to, what to say there except to kind of go, yeah, I understand what you’re saying.

You know, I can absolutely empathize into that situation. It just, yeah. And that there’s something about your story as well, that resilience to kind of go, we’re not gonna just. We’re not going to just sort of let that happen. We’re gonna do something, you know, we’re actually gonna come together and we’re gonna do something.

And turning the experience into something else is pretty amazing too. Tell me, tell me about that bit. You know, how did it sort of become a, a bag, you know, you’ve got these beautiful bags that you, that create these beautiful blue bags. Um, how did it sort of jump from that idea of we want people to be supported and not feel alone to be a bag of things, you know, what was, what was the process there?

Angela Allen: So I think the initial idea came when we lost Kat. Um, she died in hospital and when we were there, the, a police officer was there because you get a police officer assigned to you with any loss like that. And he gave me a piece of paper, a little card, and I have no idea what was on that card. I, I assume it was something to do with support services, but honestly, I dunno, by the time we drove back from the hospital to home that I’d lost that card, dunno what happened to it.

Um, and it was that, I just thought if you gave somebody something that they couldn’t lose or that would be really difficult to lose, you know, you’d have to really concentrate on losing a bag, which is, you know, it’s not huge. It’s not Satchel, but it’s definitely a tote bag.

So something that was, something that was bigger than just that piece of paper.

So we kind of talked about it at that point. And then, um, the, the bag. So I definitely thought of a bag, but actually when we reached out to some of Kat’s friends to ask them what emotions they felt when they heard about cats lost, the words that overwhelmingly came back were blame, anger, guilt, and sadness.

And so the acronym for bags was born. Um, and I think those words really resonate with other people, and I think people kind of question whether blame and guilt were the same. But for me, I definitely feel that those are very different. I think blame is externalizing, is wanting to. Find something else that made that person do what they did.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Hmm.

Angela Allen: And the guilt is very internalized. It’s all about the things that you could have done differently. So,

um, so yeah, so that, that, so the concept came from my experience at the hospital and then the bags themselves in terms of what we put into them were definitely designed by a, an army of people. We, we reached out to lots of different people to say what we should put in there and what we shouldn’t put in there.

And,

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah.

Angela Allen: and so, and so now we have hopefully things that resonate with people.

Nick McEwan-Hall: I think they absolutely do. You know, we, we, I’ve got the bag, um, your bag and I’ve seen your bag and I think they do, and, and you do a great job of explaining, you know, why those things are in there as well, which I think is a unique part of the bag actually now I think about it, you know, so that when that bag lands into that situation, into that context, into that family, into that community, there’s an explanation about why those items are in there, which. You know, yes, it’s useful to know why that item’s in there, but that gives a glimpse, doesn’t it, into the experience that the person who has that bag is going through. You know? So when we are trying to support or understand or empathize, it’s like, oh, right, that person’s probably not drinking water.

They’re probably forgetting to drink water. That’s why there’s a water bottle in there. Oh, okay, cool. There’s something I could do. There’s something I could, you know, give a little nudge or a little reminder, or maybe I could invite them for a cup of tea or something like that. It just, yeah, it’s the educational piece I think as well that, that. Those items really help with, you know, that that bubble around people makes so much sense. But I love the idea that, yeah, it’s this thing you can’t lose. It’s like there’s your support. That’s your bag. You know, that’s, that’s where this stuff can live, you know? It’s, yeah, it’s really lovely. It’s a really lovely kind of way to think about that stuff.

Yeah. And actually, you know, um, Catherine Epson here, who sort of co-founded with me, um, after receiving one of your beautiful bags, the Australian version talks about that a lot. She says, yeah, that bag went with me kind of everywhere I went. You know, it just had all the things in it that I needed. And, you know, she got something from someone, it would go in the bag and, you know, there was a, there was a place for all of that stuff, you know, love and compassion to live, but also all the kind of admin stuff to live stuff that didn’t get lost, you know, she said, I carried that bag with me everywhere.

It just, yeah. And it makes so much sense when you explain Yep. That’s where it came from, you know, your experience. Yeah. Nice.

Angela Allen: Yeah, we’ve had that feedback from others who have just said it’s, it’s like a talisman. It’s, it’s kind of an external thing that you carry around that represents your loss.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Hmm.

Angela Allen: I know, I mean, one of our, she’s now a steering group member, and she, she said that she literally carried it in every room she went to when she went to the toilet, you know, when she went to the kitchen, when she went.

And it was just something that she brought with her as kind of, this, somebody recognizes what I’m going through. And it, that’s, that was almost enough for her. And I think that’s what a lot of people say that that recognition is

Nick McEwan-Hall: Hmm.

Angela Allen: key.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. And that, like you were saying before in when you were describing where it kind of came from that that desire to want people to not feel alone in that experience, you know, to feel connected to, to know that there’s other people who understand this stuff and who’ve been in those shoes and who’ve seen the world that way, and all of that sort of thing.

I think that that, yeah, that ties in really nicely as well, that Yeah. That lands into someone’s life and it’s actually a big blaring signal that you’re not alone. You know? It just, yeah, and the, the fact that people have taken the time and the effort to think about that and to put that bag together and create it and craft it and then get it to people, I think there’s so much inferred in this simple act of giving that bag of just how much care goes into them.

Yeah. When you say it’s full of love and care and compassion, it’s like, oh yeah, clearly. Like clearly it is. It has to be. Yeah, That’s

Angela Allen: and I think it, and yeah, I was just gonna say, I think it also, I think our little book of help is also. Um, something that people really relate to because you’ll know both in your work with the after bag and also as a counselor that people don’t know how to grieve or that’s maybe not the right way to say that, but people grieve so differently and we always say there is no right way to grieve.

There isn’t. But people feel a bit weird about, you know, should I be, should I be doing this? Should I be crying all the time? Should I,

should I stay in the high? Should I go out? Should I see people? Should I not see people? And actually there is, there’s just no right way. And we want to tell people however you are feeling is justified and right.

And don’t let anyone feel that what you are doing is abnormal. And I think having the different stories of people in our little book. Who have lost different people. So there’s stories from, from mothers who have lost children. There’s stories from wives and husbands and friends, and, and hopefully we’ve got, you know, most of society represented in there so that people can look and go, uh, right.

They, they kind of have lost the same person as I have and I wonder how they’ve dealt with it. And I just think that is really helpful, knowing that, as I say, whatever, however you are coping is the right way for you to cope.

Nick McEwan-Hall: I, yeah, you’re so right. I think we’ve done. We’ve done a good job at communicating like at a society level about grief and how grief works and impacts us. But I think sometimes we’ve gone a little bit too far in terms of creating, here’s models of grief and here’s stages of grief, and, and so they’re really easy to, aren’t they, to grab on, to go, oh, okay, you know, at the stages of grief, we all, we get a PDF and look at that and go, yeah, that.

But actually everyone’s stages are completely different and I think we bring ourselves undone a little bit when we try and sort of template what things look like. And I think they’re right. Maybe not the right way, but a different way. I was gonna say better, but a different way to do it is to say, well look at all these different examples.

You know, it’s just people do it differently and that’s okay. It’s really okay. There’s, there’s a book on my coffee table at the moment. It’s, um, published by The Lonely Planet who make all the travel books and I, I won’t be able to get the name of it right. I’ll, I won’t even try. But it’s about death and grieving around the world and they talk about how different cultures and societies and countries, um, have rituals and processes and all of that sort of stuff around grief.

And you only need to look at that book to kind of go, yeah, wow. Like grief is so different everywhere. And for each of those people in those communities, it’s gonna be slightly different. But on the flip side, it gives a really nice. Bunch of ways that you can actually do grief, if that makes sense. Like you kind go, yeah, that’s a little, a ritual we’ll create, or that’s a little, um, tradition we’ll start doing, or those sorts of things you sort of lift from other people’s stories.

So by listening to other people and what they’ve been through, I think we can take so much from that, like on a personal straight in kind of level. You know, you just kinda go, yeah, that, that’s me. That’s me on a page. That’s how it works for me. Or, or if you don’t know how to do it, it’s like, I’m gonna do that.

You know, that’s what I’m gonna do. Yeah. That’s lovely. It’s a really nice, um, part of your bag. The the little, yeah, the little book. It’s

Angela Allen: I think that’s really interesting because I, I remember thinking that in terms of faith and religion and how, um, how different religions have different standard, I dunno if standards is the right word, but expectations of how you should grieve.

And, you know, in Victorian society, you know, women wore black and they wore it for a year or however long, and then you were expected almost, that was, you had 12 months to grieve and then you were supposed to get over it apart from Queen Victoria who then wore black for the rest of her life.

You know, she

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. Yeah.

Angela Allen: and said no. And I think it’s the same with, you know, the Muslim religion, that you have a period of grief and then you come back out into society and,

and I think it, it’s, it’s probably. In a way safe to have that structure. ’cause during that time, there’s no expectation.

But the fact that there’s a end period to it so wrong because you never, and I, I was gonna say, it depends who you lose. I don’t think it does depend who you lose, but I’m talking from a mother’s perspective.

My grief is as strong in the loss of my daughter as today as it was in 2019.

And it’ll never, that will never dissipate.

It will be there forever. So yes, you cope with it differently and you carry it differently, but it doesn’t go away. Um, and I think just knowing, you know, again, that goes to, we shouldn’t be judgmental on anyone’s grief.

Nick McEwan-Hall: that’s such a good point. It’s such a good point. I think you’re right. Like as you’re talking, I’m thinking, yeah. These sorts of, let’s say customs. Yeah. Or whatever it might be, but let’s say customs or rituals or processes or whatever it might be like. Yeah. It strikes me that they’re, they’re good for. The practicality maybe side of things, like, this is what we do, you know, this is what we do, this is how we handle it. And the timeframes, you know, are interesting. Some, some of the examples in the book are like, yep, things have to happen within days. And you know, when I, when I think about, when I think about complex. Grief, and I think about complex death as well. Sometimes those pro, those, those processes do not move at the same pace as what, you know, a, a culture may want or a, a religion may want or something like that.

Like, and I, I, I can just see in that problems, you know, particularly in, in terms of suicide death, which often takes a little bit of time for our sort of professional worlds to kind of move through. And yeah, I can see it also causing more problems, more grief, you know, at the same time. But I guess you hold onto that, perhaps these sorts of, yeah, these ways, uh, injecting that hopeful bit that we know is so important for people, you know, it’s like, well, yes, maybe that’s how we’re gonna do this, and that’s okay.

That’s, that’s how we’re gonna get through it, that’s what we’re gonna do. That’s the practical side of things. But I think you’re absolutely right that grief doesn’t just stop on a particular date. You know, it’s like you got a year and Yeah, it’s, it’s kind of ridiculous, isn’t it, to think it that way, but I think people do.

I think they do.

Angela Allen: definitely. Yeah. And I know even in high, you know how we grieve, nevermind the length of time we grieve for. I, I mean, I always talk about my own family situation where after we lost Cat, cat. Everyone we, rather than pulling together, which I think this happens a lot, rather than pulling together as a family, we definitely fell apart in a lot of ways.

So, you know, my other daughter, Tash was very much, I, I wanna be alone. I don’t wanna see people, I don’t want to, yeah, I don’t wanna talk about it. Um, and whereas I was like, I want everyone rind, I want as many people here as possible. I want to drink alcohol. I mean, I didn’t become an alcoholic, thank God.

Um, I, but, you know, I want, I just want, I needed people around me.

Um, my husband was very, both really, you know, in terms of wanting to be by himself. Um, but also going to the pub and my, uh, two stepdaughters again, you know, so different and, and it. It was tricky. I, I wish we’d had, I wish we’d kind of known about, you know, the support circles of

Nick McEwan-Hall: Mm.

Angela Allen: people talk about.

That the person closest to you cannot be your support

or if they’re, they then need a person on the next circle out, which to support them, who then needs, and I don’t think we realized that. I don’t think that Dave, you know, certainly with, in terms of Damien and I, he, he, I don’t, we just didn’t support each other and that’s, that contributed hugely to his suicide the next year.

You know, I wish that I had been better in terms of supporting him, but I was so. Embroiled in my own loss that I couldn’t, couldn’t see the needs of others. And that’s where friends and family and support services should be better.

Nick McEwan-Hall: yeah,

Angela Allen: they should be coming in and just providing that support, so, so, yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: It makes so much sense. You know, that. Yeah, what a situation as well. Like I’m just hearing the story again and I’m just thinking, wow, like that’s a really complicated situation. It’s really complicated. But you know, when I’m working with people, teaching them about how to support other people, one of the things we have to talk about in that is, can you do that?

You know, can you be that support? You know, and unfortunately, I think sometimes when we’re unwell, like we’re going through a mental health problem, and that doesn’t mean mental illness, it can just mean really sad, really stressed, really anxious, really worried, you know, whatever it might be grieving, just good old fashioned grieving.

You know? It can be that because of that experience, we’re unable to see things that we might be able to see when we’re not unwell. And so that means that we can’t actually see things that are happening right in front of us. And that’s not, that’s not because. We aren’t good at that, or it’s not because we haven’t seen them, it’s because we’re also in that sort of red zone space where we need somebody outside of us sitting in the corner of the room looking down, going, Hey, you know, have you seen this?

You know, have you noticed that? Like, I’ve noticed this. Can we talk about that? Can we bring that up to the surface level? But you know, it’s so hard to, to kind of. Reach out for that support as well, right? So how do you do that when you already are a bit depleted in that space of being able to advocate and yeah, it’s just such a, such a figure of eight sort of movement.

It’s like you do this and there’s that, and then, oh, because of that, there’s this other thing. And I think you’re right, we have to, we have to support services need to be in this, telling us about that. Saying, actually, you know what, just be careful that of these things, you know, or just know that this is how this works or this might happen, or whatever it might be.

But the second thing I think we really need is communities, whatever that is, whether that’s a family or a, like a beautiful town like that you described, or the whole country or the whole world, whatever it might be, or workplaces, you know, um, sporting clubs and churches and the list goes on. But I think we need communities that are skilled and alert.

You know, that they, they can sort of spot these things. They know about these things before they’re in it so that they can actually. Help people who are in it. Well, that support person is not, you know, that’s actually what we need. And it’s a big part of the work I do. But yeah, we need everything. We need all of those things.

I think, you know, we need all of it. We need the bags, we need the people, we need the professionals, we need the friends. We need all those things around us. And boy, it can be hard to accept that I think sometimes too.

Angela Allen: Yeah, very much so. Yeah, I mean, I, I think I’ve said to you before, even if, even if I’d kept that card, you know, even if I knew what was on that card, and I remember actually the police, uh, they complete a form, it’s called the G 72 form in, in England, and they go through kind of the family’s experience and right at the end the question is do you want support?

Nick McEwan-Hall: hmm.

Angela Allen: And I mean, this was probably within 24 hours of losing Cal. And I was like, no, no, but because your head’s all over the place and actually it, one, it’s the wrong time to ask, but two. We, we are trying to get ’em to change the G 72 form to, to have a opt out rather than an opt in because so many people say no in that initial few days, and actually it’s only maybe weeks or months or even years later, you go really do need support.

Um, so, so we are trying to, I think it’s the coroner’s officers here and the police that we need to kind of change the mindset of, and actually they’re coming wrong to that. They are recognizing that, yeah, it’s a simple, it’s a simple change on a form, but actually it could make a big difference to

Nick McEwan-Hall: Made a massive difference.

Yeah, massive difference. Particularly that, yeah, in that complex, traumatic kind of grief, you know, like people are not thinking clearly. I mean, I know you know this, but people aren’t thinking clearly about that stuff. And, and I think as well, like, as I think about this too, you know, when we think about suicide and mental health and all those sorts of things, it still unfortunately has a big whack of stigma around it, right?

So, you know, are people actually gonna say, yeah, I need support with this really stigmatizing thing. Probably not. Like even if they’re, they’re kind of. In good mind at that time, you know, maybe that stigma’s still gonna make them go, no, I don’t need that. But yeah, just all the things we know, right? The things we know and dealing with systems that are probably built before we knew these things and trying to change it, you know, that’s, that’s a hard, that’s a hard work, but I think it’s, it makes sense, right?

Opt out if you want to, or, you know, we’re gonna, we’re gonna call you in two weeks time and you can tell us if you want what you want then, and you can call us if between now and then if you need to. It’d be so useful. So useful. Yeah. It makes sense. Well, I wish you the best of luck getting that changed.

It, it would make so much sense to me.

Angela Allen: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they do it, I can’t remember. It’s someone, one of those Scandinavian countries, it might be Norway, um, where if there is a loss by suicide, somebody turns up on the doorstep, they’ve got a backpack, they don’t have a bag, they have a backpack, and literally it, people don’t have an option.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah.

Angela Allen: But you have that person standing at your door saying, I am here to help you. And if the family said, I don’t want it, that person comes back, they leave the bag, obviously with them, and they’ll come back repeatedly. And I think why, why does every country not have somebody with a backpack or a bag turning up on the doorstep?

Nick McEwan-Hall: that’s incredible. That’s really amazing. It fits with that sort of Scandinavian sort of social safety net thing that we hear so much about, doesn’t it? It’s kinda like,

yep. That’s, that’s how that works there. And it’s probably so deeply, it would be so odd probably if that didn’t happen there, you know?

It was so

different. Yeah. What in, in the uk, and I don’t wanna be stereotypical about this, but I’m in Australia, you’re in the uk. Um, I think people have a bit of an idea in their head about the kind of culture of the UK and the sort of stiff upper lip and the kind of, you know, what we talk about, what we don’t talk about, how, how. How much does that translate into daily, like the reality of this stuff? Is it, is it a part of the challenge that you’ve got in the uk? This kind of, yeah. I don’t know. And, and the stereotype is, the stereotype may not exist. Right. But if we think about it, yeah. And I’ll tell you, the reason I ask is because when I, when I tell people what’s in your bag, when I do training, I say, oh, you know, these are the things in the bag.

And I say, there’s tea bags in there. People say, well, of course there’s tea bags in there. It’s British, you know, and, and you have a little laugh and, and you kind of go, well, yeah, actually that’s, that’s interesting. But it’s, it’s obviously reflecting something that people hold to be true about the UK or about Brits, you know? And so I’m curious about it. Yeah. What’s the, how does the, the kind of general culture help or not help this, this sort of quest that you’re on to kind of reduce the stigma?

Angela Allen: Yeah, I really interesting question is that stoicism, isn’t it,

Nick McEwan-Hall: Hmm, that’s a good word

Angela Allen: stoicism, and I’ve gotta say here, I’m Irish, so we don’t have that. We talk to everyone and we talk a lot and, uh, we ask a lot of questions.

Um, I and I and, uh, Scottish, Welsh, I mean, very different, like really different cultures, aren’t they, across

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. Yeah.

Angela Allen: Um, but I, I’m sure that you find this, that. Suicide has been part of my language even before I lost Kat and Damien. And that’s because of the work that I did. So, you know, I, I, I knew about it. We talked about it, but actually, and, and now I, you know, I’m completely embedded in it.

I find if I talk to other people, they’re like, oh, what you wanna talk about it?

Nick McEwan-Hall: yeah,

Angela Allen: You know, or, or they’re just not, they’re just not aware, you know, of say this awful statistics around suicide and, uh, you know, all of the, all of the conversations that we would have normally with

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah.

Angela Allen: I actually am shocked by the fact that some people just don’t know about it.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Mm,

Angela Allen: so, and I think, God, aren’t you the lucky ones that suicide has obviously not been in your world?

You know, you, you are very lucky because statistically it’s almost a million people. If you look at, we’ve. I dunno if you’ve got the same in Australia, but the Samaritans here have said that for every life lost to suicide, 130 people are affected. And I think maybe that’s an international,

uh, state, and that means that almost a million people a year in England

are affected in some way.

so so I, I don’t understand why suicide is still not discussed. You know, I, you don’t wanna talk about it over breakfast in, you know, every day. But there is, I just think, and I, I think I, I do worry. Sorry I’m stuttering, but I do worry that I maybe over talk about it, that, you know, you’re sitting around on a girl’s night having your crisps and dips and I’m like bringing suicide into the conversation again.

And I do, I have to check myself with that.

But it’s such a big part of my life, you know, my life has completely changed, been changed by suicide, so, um, so it’s part of me now, but yes, I,

Nick McEwan-Hall: Mm,

Angela Allen: I, I kind of rambled there beyond your question. I think there is still that stoicism, there is still that stigma, but there’s an awful lot of work being done to break that down.

Nick McEwan-Hall: mm.

Angela Allen: it’s talked about a lot on BBC,

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. Yeah,

Angela Allen: there’s a lot of coverage, I think with the laws just recently changed so that suicide will be talked about in schools,

Nick McEwan-Hall: oh, that’s good.

Angela Allen: primary schools. So definitely there’s been a huge drive across the country to, to overcome stigma and,

Nick McEwan-Hall: Mm.

Angela Allen: everything that’s associated with loss through suicide.

Nick McEwan-Hall: that makes so much. Well, it’s good to hear that that’s the case. Yeah. I think you know that, that sort of story about that ripple around a suicide death, the 130, 140, and you know what that looks like here in Australia. I mean, we, the numbers about three and a half thousand people a year take their own life in Australia.

And you know, when we do the maths of that, it’s about nine people a day. And if we do sort of like, you know, three and a half thousand times, 130, 140, it ends up being about just short of half a million people every year. And what I always remind people when I tell them that, ’cause they’re shocked by that, they’re shocked by that number.

And then I say to them, well, this, also, don’t forget, this doesn’t include people who have attempted suicide but not, not taken. Not died. And it also doesn’t include people who’ve had the thought and the ideation, um, and the people have connected to them. So I’m sure, I don’t know that what those numbers are, but I think we quickly go from half million to maybe one and a half million people. And then I think, you know, in Australia we have 26 million people in, in our, in our country. You know, one and a half million people in 26 million people. Like, I just don’t think we’d have to go too far into our networks or, you know, when we start meeting people or we talk to people, I just don’t think we’d have to go too far to meet one of those people who’s dealt with this in some way in the last 12 months.

And then I think. Do I hear about that enough? You know, do I hear about that on the, if I think about something else, like a, maybe a physical health issue that affects the same number of people, do I hear about that? And I’m, I’m sure that I do. You know? And so it’s a bit like, well, why aren’t we doing that?

And it’s gotta be things like stigma and worry and shame and all these things that we know about, right? That are sort of bit outdated in terms of they’re bit myths, you know, they, they’re myths. But I think it does start with people that, like, I’m thinking about you, you, you know, you with out with your girlfriends and you know, having drinks and dips and stuff.

And I think it kind of starts there, you know, if people feel comfortable to talk about it or they just hear someone talking about it confidently, it can inspire that confidence in them to kind of go, well, it is all right to talk about it. And yeah, I did hear a story, or I think support starts there in a lot of ways.

So it’s. Again, it’s something you can do, right? It’s something that you can do. It’s an action you can take in this tsunami wave of, of stuff where you think, gee, what, what can I do? You know, what, what can I possibly do? Yeah. It’s interesting. I think here the, the culture, although I would say Australians get this kind of wrap of a culture that’s very laid back and, you know, we’re all chilled out and at the beach all the time and you know, like all this sort of stuff. We don’t talk about this stuff. Like we really don’t, we, we don’t, and we don’t do it to the, to the extent of the, of the challenge. Um, and we certainly don’t talk about it to the extent of the grief impact that it has. I don’t think so, and I’m convinced of that when I stand in front of people and we train people about it, you know. Every course, two or three people will say, yep, I’ve been through that. You know, it’s like, okay, you know, so why, why aren’t we talking about it? And they don’t even know they, they’re like, I’m not sure. You know? So there’s still something there to do, isn’t there? But I think practical things like the bags makes so much sense.

It allows people to

talk about it. Yeah.

Angela Allen: The other thing is, I mean, that figure of 130 people and I, I think that’s a complete underestimation. You know, if you look at a death, there was a, a death of a young girl just in the local town, and she was only 13 and she took her own life a couple of weeks ago. And she, the school community has been devastated.

You know, you’ve got 500 kids at that school and yes, not all of them were her best friend,

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Angela Allen: but when you’re in a community, a school community, you are affected by that. And I, you know, I go back to the loss of cat when, um, she had traveled, she’d done a lot of traveling, so she spent a lot of time in Australia and so she had, you know, loads of friends over there who couldn’t come over for, to say goodbye to her.

So all of those people are affected, and that’s.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Hmm.

Angela Allen: doesn’t even count into the 600 people or so that were actually at her funeral

and those that went there. So yeah, I think with young people especially, you could triple that amount and still not be close to the amount of people affected. So

I think we might, we need to reconsider that really.

And just say it’s, it’s a very underestimation

Nick McEwan-Hall: I think it’s the bare minimum situation. You know, it

might be the average, but I think it’s the, the bare minimum, you know, the bare minimum. Particularly when you think about people who, when we start thinking about trauma and being traumatized, like, you know, people can be traumatized, traumatized about anything. So there’s this idea that, you know, oh, they’re not, they, they weren’t as closely connected to this person as maybe person A was. And so maybe they’re a little bit safer from that, but it’s like, well actually that’s not how trauma works. So, you know, like that’s not how that works. It’s just not so, you know. Yeah. I, I think you’re right. I think it’s probably much more than 130 in a practical sense, you know, and yeah, we need to kind of consider that. I think in our, our approaches, it’s just, yeah, and, and I think it does help us to kind of. Keep in mind the, the, the scope of the challenge, right? The scope of the challenge.

I, I sort of say to people when I deliver the training, I’m like, if I wanna send a bag, let’s say that for every person, um, that, that loses their life to a suicide. Let’s say there’s five people that should get a bag, you know, that’s 45 bags a day I need to send. You know, and it’s just, when you think about it like that, you kind of go, oh, wow.

Like, okay. You know, it’s just, it’s a different way to think about it and it’s very practical and I think it’s possibly one of the best ways into that conversation, you know, to say, here’s what we do, here’s how we support people, here’s the scope of it. And allows people to kind of go, oh, right, okay. I didn’t realize that.

You know, so, yeah. It’s just really, it’s interesting. It’s interesting and in our previous conversations we’ve talked about sort of prevalence and rates and things and it’s, it’s similar for the population size, I think is where we’re, we kind of got to, but yeah, it’s a universal experience, isn’t it? I think this stuff, it’s a health. Experience. It’s,

uh, wherever humans exist, this risk exists. And yeah, we should think about it that way a lot of the time. I think.

Angela Allen: And also that I don’t, I dunno, why do I, you are an expert on this one. Why do they call it disenfranchised grief? Because I thought, I think that’s an awful expression that means nothing to people who have disenfranchised grief.

You know, those, it just seems like a really.

Nick McEwan-Hall: It is a strange

Angela Allen: Technical term. And I think what we are doing with after bags and with with us is recognizing that your grief is as

Nick McEwan-Hall: yeah.

Angela Allen: Significance,

you know, as anyone else. It doesn’t matter that you weren’t their mother, their father, their husband, their wife,

Nick McEwan-Hall: Mm.

Angela Allen: you were a friend, you knew them, you were a colleague, you were, you know, in their world in some way. So obviously you’ve got a right to grieve.

Nick McEwan-Hall: A hundred percent. I, I think, I mean, I don’t know why we, we call it that. I think it’s partly because as humans we like to have a box to put things in and you know, we like, yep. That’s what that is. And it kind of allows in our service system here anyway, like diagnosis allows, for example, access to things.

And if you don’t have a diagnosis, you can’t have access. And like, it’s kind of tied into that, that thinking method I think, in a lot of ways. But I think actually as you’re talking, it, it, it makes me wonder if maybe the. The right way to kind of talk about suicide loss and suicide grief is to say, well, actually the conversation needs to be around grief and how grief works, because grief is the umbrella experience and everyone’s grief is different. A suicide grief is different to a, you know, grieving a pet, for example, you know, grieving a pet or grieving a job loss or a relationship breakdown, like whatever it might be. So let’s talk about grief and how that shows up because, and it reminds me of, like, the reason I’m thinking about that is, uh, earlier in the year, one of the clients that I’ve worked with, they, I’ve taught their team Mental Health First Aid and, and one of their team lost their partner to suicide. And they asked me to come in and talk to ’em about like, what do we do when this person comes back to the office? You know, what do we do? How do we handle this? What should we say? What shouldn’t we say? You know, all these things. And I thought a. Kudos to you to realize that that’s happening. You know that that’s happening in your team. That’s amazing. Number one. So even like, I’m confident just hearing that that is gonna be fine, you know, ’cause you’ve got that awareness. Um, but number two, it is grief. And when we sat around the table and we talked with that person’s team about what they were worried about, it became really clear that they were just all grieving as well.

They were grieving that their friend was grieving, they were grieving, that their colleague was grieving, they were having a grief response to this thing that, particularly with that workplace lens on it, people would say. This is a, just a colleague of yours, you know, it’s like, but actually this is someone I work with.

I see them five times a week. I, I, I, you know, maybe they hired me, maybe I hired them. You know, there’s, there’s strands to that relationship that, that transmit that grief. Right. And if we just don’t, if we think that that doesn’t happen, then I think, I don’t, I don’t know where we’re going with that. Like, I just don’t think that works.

So maybe the conversation has to be about how grieving works and how impactful that is, both physically and mentally and, and emotionally. I think that’s part of the, the skillset we need to develop is how do we do grief,

Angela Allen: Yeah,

Nick McEwan-Hall: you know?

Angela Allen: And you’d, yeah. Gosh, this, you just make me think of loads of conversations that I’ve had over the time where I don’t, you know, that physicality of grief as well. You know how it can, I didn’t realize that grief could make you feel so ill, you know? Or it could hurt physically,

actually, and I don’t think people do know that.

I mean, I don’t know, maybe.

Nick McEwan-Hall: I don’t think they do.

Angela Allen: think we need to be educated better, but I suppose there’s a fine line of going, you know this, this is, this is the worst you’re ever gonna feel in your whole life as a 6-year-old. You’re going, oh my God, what?

Nick McEwan-Hall: Well, yeah, but, well, yeah, I mean that’s, that’s the thing, isn’t it? I mean, crafting, when you said before that, that the things are changing so that primary school kids will learn about this stuff. I think that’s incredible. And of course, this is the other thing I hear sometimes is people go, oh, we shouldn’t talk about that, like that with that group of people.

And it’s like, well. No one is doing that. No one is going into a primary school and saying, you know, people take their own lives. You know, like they’re not going, they’re not being really blunt about it. They’re adapting that message to be appropriate, and that’s what we should do. And that’s kind of what we’ve been talking about for the last little while, is like, well, how do we show up for people?

How do we meet them where they are? And of course, we’re gonna do that differently with a primary school student than we are with a, with an adult. And as I say that, I’ve met lots of young teenagers who would do this a lot better because they’ve been taught and shown and educated about mental health and emotional health and wellbeing and things. They might do that a lot better than I would as a 46-year-old, you know, because I, I didn’t have that. So, you know, I think there’s change coming. There’s, there’s sort of change coming, but we want it to be faster. But yeah, I think it’ll come, I think it’ll sort of end up being, yeah, we talk about this, this is what we do.

And maybe they don’t have all the detail, all the, all the fine tuned, you know, knowledge about it. But they’ve got the basics down they go. Yeah. I’m grieving, like, go away. I’m grieving you. I can’t wait for that moment to happen for someone to say, you know what, no, I’m, I’m going through grief. Go away.

You know, it’s just, it makes sense to me, you know? Yeah. As, as, uh, I

mean, I’ve,

Angela Allen: they’re doing

a bit of work here as well about that workplace loss and also about of, um, terms of bereavement leave,

I think that they’re trying to change legislation here as well around that with, uh, loss, particularly loss through suicide, actually.

But it’s interesting going back, I was thinking about, um, I went back into Kat’s school to do, one of my friends had donated a prize,

um, which was awarded in Kat’s name for kindness and compassion, because that’s, that’s what Kat was, you

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. Yeah.

Angela Allen: so kind.

Um, and so the first year I, we went in to present the prize. We spoke to the head teacher and she said, yeah. I said, what would you like us to talk about? And she said, well, please talk about Kat, and you can obviously talk about that. She isn’t here anymore. Don’t talk about the charity and don’t talk about how she died.

And it was like, right, so you, you want us to talk about her?

And she actually had said about, you know, we’d like you to talk about the charity, but she said, I don’t want you to talk about why you’ve set up the charity or what the charity does. Well, therefore I can’t talk about the charity

and I can’t, yes, I can say Kat Kat went to the school and then she died, is basically the story that I was going in with.

And I just thought, why It was because, you know, she wanted to protect the school from talking about suicide. I’m sorry, but those kids have heard about it. Some people have been affected by it. Why would you not want to say that word?

Nick McEwan-Hall: It, it’s so, it’s such a typical response, I think, unfortunately, isn’t it? Like you, they go, we don’t wanna talk about it. And it flags to me that, that that envi, and it’s not just schools. I think there’s lots of environments that, that would have the same sort of reaction. It’s like this big screaming red flag that actually, that that environment needs to learn about this stuff.

Like, you actually need to understand it. ’cause I don’t think you do. And protecting those young people from suicide is very much about talking about suicide with them as a concept, as a, not as an act, but as a concept and a thing that happens and a state that people can be in. And within that, a very empowered skillset where we can actually get involved and help people and stop it.

You know, I, hopefully not always, of course, but yeah, safety and suicide involves talking about it.

Angela Allen: Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: You know, I just, yeah. And I, and I do, I do understand where they’re coming from. Like, it’s well intentioned, but I think the impact is not great. You know, the

impact’s not great. I, a big theme for me this year in my sort of teaching and mental health stuff is good, intention is good.

Like, we want people to have good intentions. We want people to have well-intentioned conversation, but you also have to measure the impact of that conversation too. And those, both of them need to kinda line up. And if you only want to get one, go for impact, go for positive impact. That’s, that’s what you should measure. Because intention, you can have the nicest intention. I don’t wanna upset anybody. Yeah. I don’t wanna upset anybody. But actually that means that we don’t give them the opportunity to learn. We don’t give them the opportunity to. Safe, or we don’t give them the opportunity to say, you know, in that situation, I can feel myself getting on a high horse here, Angela.

We, we don’t, we don’t give them that opportunity to say, oh, my friend yesterday told me that they were thinking about that. What should I do? You know, like, it’s just, yeah, it doesn’t make sense, but I understand it. I understand where people come from and it’s a tough one. It’s a really difficult one to, to crack, particularly in a school setting.

I think, you know, schools are trying to keep so many people happy

and you know, what an impossible task, just in general. But I get it, but it doesn’t make sense. And like you said several times today, young people already know about it. They, if they, if their friend says, I’m thinking about doing this, they’re online, they’re googling it, they’re finding out anyway they like, and we’re sitting there going, no, we won’t talk about it.

It just, yeah, it baffles me. It baffles me, but it does it at the same time. It frustrates me is what it is.

Yeah.

yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. I have. Yeah, I can, I can get, I can easily get on it and I’ve learned how to get on, get off it as well. Yeah. I mean, I, I think it’s that emotion that that passion, that emotion is, is tied to the work that we do, isn’t it?

Like it is tied to that work that we do. And, and it’s from experience, I suppose too, but it’s also from knowledge and skill and understanding and all of these things that we are quite maybe lucky slash unlucky you to have. Right. But we hold that power in that knowledge, and how do we translate that into action?

I think the bags are just such a beautiful example of how you do that. You know, that’s a nice way to do it, but there’s so much else you can do. Yeah. I’ve got a lot of faith in, in, in. Young people learning about this stuff because they have the tools. You know, when, like, I, I made a joke. I was teaching a, a bunch of high school students a couple of months ago out in the country, and, um, I said, guys, you know, where do you learn about this stuff?

And I said, oh, well you just Google it. And I said, okay, cool. And one of ’em said to me, oh, how did you learn about it when you’re, when you’re in high school? I said, okay, let, lemme tell you, take you back. Yeah, take, let me take you back. I had to, if I went to the library, I would go to the library and I would say to the librarian, oh, can I get, um, that encyclopedia on CD Rom? I’d have to take this cd, I’d have to book a computer, I’d have to put the CD in the computer. And that, I’d have to hope that that CD had the information on it that I wanted. Yeah. And they’re like, they’re looking at me as if I’m from outer space, you know? And I’m like, well, that’s how, how life was. And so, you know, it’s hopeful to me that they have access to these things, this information. Um, but it needs to be guided, it needs to be informed, it needs to have context around it, I think, which is where skill and experience and lived experience ’cause such an important part of that story, I think. Yeah.

Angela Allen: Was this a perfect segue into me now talking about our next steps in developing the bikes for young people.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah, please go for it. I’d love to hear about that. Yeah, absolutely. I suppose to, like we’ve, we’ve mentioned, I mean, you and I have talked a lot, but we’ve mentioned in the conversation, um, the bag. So just very quickly, um, you know, your, my, my, um, friend now started as a, as a, a client, Catherine, um, Catherine Epson here in Australia. She was the lucky recipient of one of your bags when her dad passed and her mom got a bag as well. And she brought that to me and we did mental health first aid training with the team. And she said, does this bag exist? And I’m telling the abridged version here for our listeners, but you know, the answer was no, it doesn’t.

And so we. Worked for a year and a bit to kind of create it. And we worked with you to kind of learn about how you did your bags and our bags very much mirror yours and we’ve sort of, yeah, we’ve, you’ve been so generous with your help and support around that, but the Australian version of bags for strife is after bags Australia and, and they exist now.

So yes, it that just, just for the listener to listen. That’s why we’re talking, you know, that’s, that’s how this connection happened and it’s been beautiful. It’s been a really lovely working relationship with you and Alani and the rest of the, the team too. But yeah, and, and you, when you say young bags for young people, we, we get their request all the time.

We’ll present our bag and they’ll say, oh, is there a version for this? Is there a version for this community? Is there a version for that one? And you know, I would love to just be able to do versions for everyone and, but young people has been on the list, you know, for us. So yeah. We’d love to hear about what that looks like.

Yeah. Young bags for strife.

Angela Allen: Well, it’s not, uh, we haven’t done it yet. We’re just in its development. So as you say, Nick, we have had so many requests kind of, um, from families or schools or of people, young people who have lost young people and young people who have been affected by suicide through the loss of a family member or,

um, whomever.

So, so we, like you, I think we’ve been talking about it for a long time, and this year we’ve just, we got some additional money from. A philanthropist who basically said, yeah, we wanna support this. So,

so I’m talking to lots of different charities who work with young people to get them to have those conversations with young people.

So bring along one of our bags and asking them what, what do they think of the current contents? How relevant are they and what would they put in there instead? Um, so they’ll be curated, designed by the young people,

and eventually, eventually we will have a journal for the young people that’s designed by them, and a little book of help for the young people that is designed by them.

Um, but at the moment we’re just concentrating on, on the items themselves. And so, so, and, and. I dunno if it’s strangely or whether I should have been surprised, but a lot of the items really resonate with them anyway. There aren’t, there aren’t that many things that they want to change. So as I say, they would change slightly.

The journal, they would change the slightly, the little book of help, the tea bag. They said, Nope, we want hot, hot chocolate or you know, something else, the anger bowl. So in there is the anger bowl, which represents one of the emotions that we talked about at the beginning. And they wanted that, um, they wanted a fidget toy,

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yep.

Angela Allen: which, you know, again, they wanted the water bottle because they recognized that the tissues, obviously

even the lip balm and the sleep spray, because they represent different things.

Um. And I can’t think what else. A candle. So basically maybe a battery operated one, like the one that you’ve got actually in your after bags. Um, a battery operated one rather than the one that we put

Nick McEwan-Hall: yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Angela Allen: And I think maybe they wanted some kind of, you know, small cuddly toy thing,

Nick McEwan-Hall: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Angela Allen: tactile thing that

Nick McEwan-Hall: Mm.

Angela Allen: hold in.

But actually we haven’t heard from that many. We’ve maybe, maybe only heard from 20 young people so far, but I am quite surprised that they haven’t just gone well. They’re a load of rubbish and actually we need to start all over again. What they’ve done is no, we, you know, we get that and we, we understand why it’s in there.

And actually all of those things resonate. So hopefully, I’m hoping by maybe the end of this year, certainly into early next year, that those bags will be ready to be given out.

Nick McEwan-Hall: exciting. Yeah,

it makes, it does make sense to me. I, I would, when I’ve thought about our bags and I’ve thought about, you know, translating them into different kind of cohorts, I have wondered similar things about like, oh, I wonder if people like this. But as you describe it, as you, as you talk about, about your experience talking to young people, it just makes me think that it goes back to the, the commonality of the emotions that you’re trying to support, right?

Like, blame, anger, guilt, sadness. It’s like, well, how those items are in there because they directly address these things. And maybe where there’s a little young person tweak, it’s because, you know, like the tea bags and stuff like that, you know, tea bags, hot chocolate, that’s a thing. Um. And so they’re just adjusting.

It’s not so much that that doesn’t make sense, but it’s because those items do so tightly support the emotions that you set out to support when you created the bags in the first place.

Angela Allen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think it doesn’t matter. Grief, uh, you know, we, we’ve talked about how grief is different, but actually an awful lot of the emotions that you face are not to do with age or generation. Young people will feel all of the things that their parents, their grandparents, you know, their older generations will feel as well.

And so I, I suppose even recognizing that is, you know, is a start, isn’t it?

Nick McEwan-Hall: Definitely. I think, I think it just fits in with that conversation we’re having before that they know about this stuff they’ve experienced or they’ve heard about it, or they’ve read about it or something like that. So yeah, they’ve, they’ve got the. They might not have the right sort of knowledge and toolkit, but with a little support to fill in those bits that an adult brain can do differently.

Like literally can do differently. They can do all the things we need them to do or we want them to do. You know, it’s sort of like, yeah, we just have to be there to support and, and um, kind of facilitate that process for them. They can do whatever they need to do to support each other. They just need those extra bits that often as young people, they just don’t have.

And that might be access or, you know, money or tools or knowledge or whatever it might be. But yeah, it doesn’t surprise me I guess when I think about it, that they would like the items in there, you know, to go Yeah, they are nice items. They are good things. And the fidget stuff makes sense to me as well, you know? That’s, yeah. That’s really interesting. That’s exciting.

Angela Allen: they also, yeah, I mean we’re re you know, really, really wanna get it launched as soon as possible. I think with both of the after bags, with our bags and with the young person’s bags, some of it is just the recognition. You know, it almost, I’m contradicting what I’ve said before. It almost doesn’t matter what’s in there.

It’s actually just we recognize your loss

and we know that your loss is equal to everyone else’s, and here’s a bag that proves that. And I think for young people, that is really important as well, isn’t it? That,

Nick McEwan-Hall: Definitely.

Angela Allen: that, that we’re acknowledging it and we are, we recognize how much this is affecting you and we want to help in some way.

Nick McEwan-Hall: I think so. I, I really think so. I think young people often feel like they don’t have a lot of control in their world, you know, like if they’re still in high school for example, or younger, they don’t have that autonomy. They, they kind of can’t for a lot of reasons, you know, but that they, they still feel urge to support or do or that sort of stuff, but they don’t have that, yeah, they don’t have that kind of. What’s the word? Yeah, that autonomy to actually do it. So it’s sort like, well, here’s a way that you can, you know, here’s an easy way that you can, you know, we’ve done it for you. You just have to sort of push the button. You know, you just have to kinda go, yep, that’s what I want and that’s how I’m gonna do it.

Like, they just need that little bit of extra support to bridge the gaps that are just kinda woven into the way that the world’s built. Right? Like the world’s not built for young people really. And. It’s frustrating for them. They know that. They know that we know that. So it’s like building that bridge makes sense.

So to have the bag and to kind of show them that’s the how you can do it, and these are the things that exist and a lot of the things we’ve talked about tonight still come back for me, um, to this idea of hope, right? This idea of like, yeah, that’s hopeful. Yeah. Things can happen and we hope it never does happen, but when it, when things do happen, we, we have a way to kind of help people feel hopeful that they’ll move through whatever they move, what, whatever they’re going through.

And in a way that’s evidence-based and empathetic and caring and all the things that we started our conversation talking about that that’s what the bags are designed to do. Yeah. Have you ever Sometimes I think about, um, I think about it’s, it’s, it’s a, I don’t quite know how to explain it, but I think, you know, we sit, I often sit in front of people and show them the bag and they say, oh, that’s such a good idea. You know? That’s such a good idea. And I think to myself. Well, it is literally just a bunch of things that we’ve, we’ve identified are useful. There’s nothing really stopping you from buying similar things, you know, and giving them to a person. So, you know, I’m so glad that we’ve put the effort in and you’ve put your effort into your base, and we’ve done the same thing here, but it can feel a little bit, it’s not frustrating.

It’s sort of like, yeah, why aren’t we? And I think it’s just people need that little bit of help that just a little bit of support. Like, we’ve done it just here. It’s okay. You don’t have to think about it. It’s fine. It feels a little bit like, like when I teach mental health first aid skills, I finished two days of training.

I say, great, I hope you never have to use anything I’ve taught you at these two days. Yeah, I hope, I hope I never, I hope I never see you again. You know, like it’s that sort of thing. And it’s, and it’s strange, isn’t it? But they’re all like, no, it’s been so useful. It’s gonna be so good. And it’s like, well, yeah, it’s that chicken egg thing in a way.

You know? I don’t quite know how to articulate it, but. Yeah, I think it takes people to blaze the trail a little bit sometimes to say, you know what? These things exist if it helps you, that’s amazing. That’s what we are here for. If it sparks a conversation, awesome. And if that creates, you know, safer communities, more alert communities, then even better, you know, even better.

Angela Allen: I think it’s so right. I mean we, we’ve talked about this some, we, but people dunno what to say, you know, you have that, this, whether it’s stigma, whether it’s just grief or whatever, that, you know, you have that walking into the supermarket and people avoid, they won’t come up to you because they dunno what to say.

Um, and it’s actually just say anything, you know, just come over and acknowledge that person.

Just, there is, there’s nothing that you can say that’s going to make anything worse because the worst possible thing that has ha that could happen has happened.

So you are not, whatever you say is not gonna, it’s just not gonna make it, you know, more complex.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah.

Angela Allen: I think that bank, I think more people should actually read. We’ve got the little book and I think more people should read that. ’cause there is, anybody can be there for their friend in whatever capacity. And whether that’s just coming around making food, making the cup of tea, which is why we put the tea bag in there.

You know, doing things around the highest to help by, you know, you don’t need to be a counselor, you don’t need to be somebody that’s an expert in psychotherapy to know what to do to support someone. What you need to be is a good friend and that’s, that’s as much as it is.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. That’s so well said. So well said. I think a lot of people that I, that I speak with, they’ll say, yep, I don’t. I, I want you to say hello to me. I want you to kind of reach out to me, but I don’t expect anything from you. You

know, and I think this is the thing on the other side of the, of the coin, the person who’s holding back from saying hello or reaching out, I think a lot of the time they’re worried about, oh, well, if the person says something, I don’t dunno how to respond, like that’s gonna be a problem.

But it’s actually like, no, that person doesn’t expect you to have all these magic answers. And to be a, you know, like, as you say, be a psychotherapist, be a counselor, be a grief worker. Like they don’t expect that.

But also they notice you not making the approach. And that’s gotta be tricky. You know? It’s gotta be tricky and, and you know, so just by saying hello or, or even saying hi, I don’t know what to say,

but I just wanna say hello, you know. I got no idea what I should do, but Hello? Yeah. Like what an icebreaker. It just, yeah, it’s easy. It’s an easy, well, I say it’s easy, but that would be useful for people because I don’t think people really expect the world when we reach out for support. They, they really don’t. And hopefully, as we’ve talked about by that stage, they’ll have supports around them.

Ideally,

fingers crossed, you know, they don’t need that from us. They just need friendship. Yeah, absolutely.

Angela Allen: And, or, or as we say, I can you see my sweatshirt, Nick?

Nick McEwan-Hall: Yeah. Hugs help. I love your two sweatshirts. Yeah. Yeah. Hugs help.

Angela Allen: And it really, you know, if, if you don’t have the right words, just give somebody a hug. I mean, obviously maybe not in an inappropriate fashion with a stranger, um, because that would be weird. But certainly with your friends and your colleagues.

Nick McEwan-Hall: Absolutely. Yeah. Or even just saying, you know, I spend a lot of my time working in workplaces and teaching workplaces how to do it, and they, they spend a lot of time dancing around the like, oh, what’s appropriate at work? I’m like, well, actually, what’s appropriate between you and that person? You know, that’s, that’s kind of what it is.

It’s not about the building you’re in. Um, so, you know, even saying so to someone, oh, I really feel like I want to give you a hug, but I know that wouldn’t be right. You know, just saying something like that can

just convey, oh, like, that’s, that’s the empathy. It’s like, oh, I feel like I wanna give you a hug, but I feel like it might be weird, you know?

Angela Allen: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Nick McEwan-Hall: says, nah, bring it in, give me a hug. It’s like, give em a hug. You know, like, but just telling them what you’re thinking, I think it’d be good to kind of go, well, yeah, I really wanna give you a hug, or, oh, I really wanted to like, do something for you. I didn’t know what to do. Or, you know. Yeah. I wanted to say hello. I wasn’t sure if I should, it just tells them that. You’ve been listening and thinking

about them and caring. Yeah. It’s so much to communicate in that. And I love the, the hugs can help the idea. It’s really nice. Oh, Angela, it’s been such a good conversation. It’s been such a good, we could talk for hours, we could talk for hours about this stuff, and maybe we should, maybe we should get together again and do another, another chat.

But yeah, look from, from me and, um, I know Catherine, Catherine was really excited that you and I were catching up. We just wanna say a big thanks for being so generous with your thinkings and learnings and, and for having started the, the, the, the, um, bags that you have in the first place. Because without that, they wouldn’t exist here in Australia.

And we’re so proud to tell your story whenever we introduce it to people here. And people love hearing the story. Um, they really love it. They, they, they love the idea. And none of that would’ve happened without you and your crew, your little bubble of community reacting the way that you did so many years ago.

It’s just, yeah, it’s our. Deep, deep. Thanks. It’s just, yeah. Incredible what you do.

Angela Allen: You are very welcome. We’re just really happy that you know that that support is, it’s, it’s not just in the uk, it’s not just in Australia. It’s all over the world. And why would everyone should have the support that they need when they need it and for as long as they need it for. And that’s what we’re both trying to do.

And I’m really looking forward to coming over to Melbourne at some point. I mean, I’ve not extended that invitation, but that will be

Nick McEwan-Hall: Oh yeah. The invitation’s open and come whenever you like, you know? Absolutely. Um, absolutely. And next time I I’m over your way. We’ll, we’ll catch up too and yeah. It, it, it, yeah. Here’s a long, long lasting relationship sending bags where they need to go, wherever, wherever they might end up in the world.

Hey.

Angela Allen: Yeah, definitely. Cheers to that.